Chris Hauty, author of The Devil You Know

00:00:00:03 - 00:00:28:03 DAVID Well, what's happening? So I'm heading up the five from San Diego to Los Angeles. And to be more specific. But, Dale, we're today I'm going to sit down with the immensely talented Chris Hauty. Now, if you know Chris, you know that his first book was Deep State. I'm not going to rattle through all of them because there's just too many to tell.

00:00:28:15 - 00:00:52:18 DAVID We're going to sit down in the studio with an old friend of mine, Jonathan Ayala, who runs a media company out of Glendale. So this is going to be my little bit of a preamble intro to the show as I go sit down with one of my favorite people on the planet. And I mean that Chris is just he's old school and I dig every bit of it.

00:00:52:18 - 00:00:56:13 DAVID So why don't you and I get into the Thriller zone?

00:00:57:14 - 00:01:02:23 DAVID So I'm driving up here to see you in Los Angeles, Glendale, to be specific.

00:01:02:23 - 00:01:04:18 CHRIS But close to Pasadena.

00:01:04:19 - 00:01:17:21 DAVID It's Pasadena adjacent yet. Anyway, so I'm coming up and I recorded my intro to the show, which is what you just saw. Did you like that opening? Was it kind of hit you down a little bit?

00:01:17:22 - 00:01:32:13 CHRIS It did. It was exciting. I was enticed to listen more and I asked the question, You're driving safely. Well, you know, we're not even supposed to text it, let alone shoot promos.

00:01:32:13 - 00:01:49:09 DAVID Well, here's the good here's the good news so I can put your mind at ease. And it was a two camera shoot. So I have my phone myself, you know, my cell phone on the attached to the window. Not hurt. I don't have to touch it. And then another one mounted to my sunroof, which is. Anyway.

00:01:49:21 - 00:01:50:21 DAVID Welcome to the show.

00:01:50:22 - 00:01:53:29 DAVID It's. Dude, I just want to do something different for you and me.

00:01:54:09 - 00:01:55:07 CHRIS Face to face.

00:01:55:07 - 00:01:56:12 DAVID Face to face.

00:01:56:12 - 00:02:01:10 CHRIS Look at. There is no virtual. There's no Ethernet. It's. We're here in the room.

00:02:01:11 - 00:02:13:01 DAVID Think about this. The show started just shy of two years ago. When this drops and this is the first face to face.

00:02:13:20 - 00:02:17:24 CHRIS The first I and I inaugurated the face to face.

00:02:17:24 - 00:02:18:09 DAVID You did.

00:02:18:12 - 00:02:19:13 CHRIS Thriller Zone?

00:02:19:23 - 00:02:36:27 DAVID Yes. I'm excited you put the cherry on the top. Now, I will say we've gotten great feedback from the one that you and I did. When you're sitting out on your back porch, which I got to see today, which is very cool. Mm hmm. Yeah, I remember that day because we start out like, hey, can we just do it this way?

00:02:36:27 - 00:02:40:01 DAVID And I'm like, Yeah. And then you said, Let me go get some coffee.

00:02:40:01 - 00:02:42:23 CHRIS You know, we took a coffee break, kept the camera rolling. Yeah.

00:02:44:05 - 00:02:46:10 DAVID That's the way I like to do this show. Yeah.

00:02:46:19 - 00:02:47:24 CHRIS We always have a good time.

00:02:47:24 - 00:02:53:26 DAVID We do. And I'm so glad you agreed to do this. So we're going to be talking about this beautiful book.

00:02:54:01 - 00:02:54:26 CHRIS Mm hmm. Yeah.

00:02:54:26 - 00:02:58:08 DAVID All the devil you know. Oh, yours is pretty. Yours is? Yeah.

00:02:58:09 - 00:02:59:07 CHRIS Yeah. Hardcover.

00:02:59:08 - 00:03:08:19 DAVID Yeah. Nice. Yeah. There is so much I want to say. We've got just shy of an hour because we got to scoot down to Altadena so I can read a little, like.

00:03:09:02 - 00:03:10:20 DAVID Hey, did you know that I wrote a book?

00:03:11:05 - 00:03:16:06 CHRIS I didn't know that. And I have it in my possession, and I'm going to be reading it very soon.

00:03:17:18 - 00:03:21:03 DAVID I'm going to hold you to that devour. Yes.

00:03:21:03 - 00:03:22:27 CHRIS Thank you. By David Temple. Yes.

00:03:23:12 - 00:03:30:18 DAVID I do want to make this all about you, but I got to tell you something. I'm going to shoot out of the gate with this. This is your best work yet.

00:03:31:18 - 00:03:33:25 CHRIS Wow. Yeah. Well, thank you.

00:03:33:27 - 00:03:39:04 DAVID Now, when I read Deep State, which was number one, which was only for years.

00:03:39:05 - 00:03:42:08 CHRIS January 3rd, 2020.

00:03:42:08 - 00:03:44:25 DAVID Two. Yeah. Not even four years. Okay.

00:03:44:27 - 00:03:46:24 CHRIS Right before the pandemic hit.

00:03:47:21 - 00:03:52:21 DAVID Matter of fact, that's right, because I was at Thriller Fest 2019 and I.

00:03:52:21 - 00:03:53:20 DAVID Saw.

00:03:54:04 - 00:03:55:11 DAVID Arcs out on it.

00:03:56:00 - 00:03:56:15 CHRIS Yes.

00:03:56:21 - 00:04:03:25 DAVID And I was like, Who is this guy? And what is this book? Because it was an inverted capital building, wasn't it?

00:04:03:25 - 00:04:04:19 CHRIS Yes. Yes.

00:04:05:19 - 00:04:34:13 DAVID That got my attention because, you know, I'm a fanatic for covers. And then I read that I'm like, oh, my goodness, who is this guy? Fresh, original woman protagonist, written by a guy which I thought was really cool, had all the information that you need without giving me everything. And I hesitating because I don't want to call any names.

00:04:34:26 - 00:04:44:20 DAVID Here's my point. You and I, we've developed enough friendship. I can just tell it like it is, right? Yes, there are guys and gals who give me too much.

00:04:45:01 - 00:04:45:10 DAVID Mm hmm.

00:04:46:10 - 00:04:47:14 DAVID You don't do that.

00:04:47:15 - 00:04:47:24 CHRIS Mm hmm.

00:04:48:03 - 00:04:49:26 DAVID And I applaud you for that.

00:04:50:25 - 00:05:05:11 CHRIS Well, coming from the world of screenwriting, if you gave too much, they wouldn't read past page three. So I learned early on in my writing career to keep things succinct.

00:05:05:18 - 00:05:40:22 DAVID Yeah. And what's interesting, there's only I only know this because I've studied a little bit of screenwriting and I've written for want, only one of which went anywhere. But it's such a specific talent. And what's interesting, I've never read any of your screenplays, but I would love to because I would love to break down and see how your storytelling works in that form, but you bring that sensibility to your writing, so you set up enough of the scene.

00:05:41:13 - 00:05:47:05 DAVID I think what I'm trying to get at is you let me do some of the work.

00:05:48:12 - 00:05:49:04 CHRIS Yeah, Yeah.

00:05:49:04 - 00:05:51:00 DAVID You don't have to. You don't have to tell me everything.

00:05:51:00 - 00:05:57:11 CHRIS Yeah. You don't want to show too much of the shark too often and too early.

00:05:57:13 - 00:06:16:08 DAVID Yeah. What is the saying? Explain this to me. I had the hardest time understanding this phrase, but you're good at this. And for my listeners who don't know exactly what this phrase is, you'll be able to describe it. Show, don't tell.

00:06:16:15 - 00:06:55:11 CHRIS Oh, well, um, it's revealing stuff. Whatever your ideas are or whatever information you're trying to impart, instead of obviously telling your reader it's showing them through, you know, a gun on the table. Yeah. The way a guy repeatedly might be scratching his forehead in the course of a conversation or any of those little unexpected details that will convey.

00:06:55:12 - 00:06:55:24 DAVID Yeah.

00:06:56:04 - 00:07:02:29 CHRIS The information that you're trying to convey and an interesting, hopefully, I think, cinematic way.

00:07:04:20 - 00:07:16:24 DAVID Haley Chill has become one of my favorite characters because, well, first of all, as my wife Tammy is, you know Tammy and you.

00:07:17:09 - 00:07:18:23 CHRIS I like her better than you folks.

00:07:18:23 - 00:07:39:15 DAVID I was going to say the next thing he's going to say is he likes you. He likes her so much better than me. So when I think about Haley, I think about, you know, she's short, she's cute, but she's an ass kicking machine. She's not taking any guff. And I like that I'm an underdog fan, so I always see her as kind of the underdog.

00:07:39:20 - 00:08:02:21 DAVID But she's not to be messed with. And she's a deeper state operative, Which in case you don't know what that is, we're repeatedly told about that in the show in the book, rather. And she is so fun. But the we were talking before we started the show about I'm like, did she always have the profound battle with booze?

00:08:02:21 - 00:08:08:13 DAVID I mean, I remember she used to dial it in early on, but she seems to really be.

00:08:08:28 - 00:08:09:21 DAVID Well.

00:08:09:21 - 00:08:59:21 CHRIS She is a supremely focused and typically disciplined character. She there's not a lot of fluff or frills or distractions in her life. She's very dedicated to her ideals and her mission. But if she was like that all of the time, then she would be a robot and a machine. And so when she is in need of some kind of release, it usually up until this book, it would take the form of going to a bar usually and drinking copious amounts of tequila.

00:08:59:21 - 00:09:28:16 CHRIS And then generally fighting or fucking somebody or both. So, you know, I think it's in each book. Yeah, I think it isn't. Yeah. It's not so much in Storm Rising because there's another complication in her personal life that really prevents her from drinking. And I need to think about that for a second. Whether or not she does drink that much and storm rising.

00:09:28:16 - 00:09:53:04 CHRIS But it all comes to a head in this new book and the devil you know and we see a real turn in that behavior that will describe a new path, a personal path for Reilly.

00:09:53:04 - 00:10:25:22 DAVID Anybody who has had a challenge with depression or an over use of booze will really understand some of the deeper nuances and the emotional torture that she's going through, because I have been in similar places in my life and I was like, Yeah, I understand that where you're just thinking about how, where, where you can sneak a little pop and to get you to over here and then get you through it and you're like, Oh, that, that'll do it.

00:10:25:22 - 00:10:28:10 DAVID And then it never does it. And then it takes more and more and more.

00:10:29:20 - 00:10:55:11 CHRIS Fortunately, I haven't. I don't have that problem. But my father was an alcoholic and and a good friend of mine is an alcoholic. But long in recovery. But I was fortunate enough to be able to talk to her and get some ideas about some of the things that Haley is going through in this book. Yeah, trying to get it right.

00:10:55:11 - 00:10:56:22 CHRIS You know, you don't want to screw that up.

00:10:57:21 - 00:11:24:16 DAVID And I've known a few people like that and you nailed it. And you did, but you didn't. You didn't glorified and you didn't overdo it. You know, you did just enough, like again, not to blow smoke up your skirt. But it really is the thing about this book is it's nuanced and it's balanced. One of my absolute loot favorite aspects and I had forgotten because, you know, I'm reading a lot of books, Chris So keep in Everybody's Straight is sometimes a challenge.

00:11:24:16 - 00:11:28:29 DAVID But April Woo Love me some woo.

00:11:30:25 - 00:11:31:11 DAVID Now.

00:11:33:10 - 00:11:36:08 CHRIS I know I feel about that tagline, but.

00:11:36:20 - 00:11:40:00 DAVID Well, it's just so interesting how you came up.

00:11:40:09 - 00:12:02:04 DAVID I don't know about the time I say this. Somebody is going to write me and go, Well, they don't. You know that so-and-so did that, but where did this come from? Because first of all, explain who April Woo is and why she's so key central to the story and why it's so interesting.

00:12:02:04 - 00:12:41:26 CHRIS Well, again, you need to especially with a character like Hayley Cho, who seems so isolated and unadorned, you know, there needs to be ways to pull her out of the mission, you know, besides going to bars and drinking copious amounts of tequila and fighting and fucking or both. So, you know, early on in the series, you know, I developed April Woo as both a rival and a and a friend of of Haley's.

00:12:42:12 - 00:12:54:01 CHRIS And at the end of book three, there's a rather dramatic twist which shall I discuss that twist I.

00:12:54:12 - 00:12:59:01 DAVID I think you should only from the standpoint of it would interest me you know you're.

00:12:59:03 - 00:13:32:04 CHRIS I don't think it's a big reveal in this book, generally speaking. I think if you you're picking up the dove and you know, you've read The Storm Rising book number three in the series, and that's where we reveal throughout book three in Peru periodically turns up during the story. Right. And it's not till the very end that we learn that she's actually been appearing in the story and in Haley's company as an apparition.

00:13:32:07 - 00:13:32:20 DAVID Yeah.

00:13:33:09 - 00:14:04:17 CHRIS And that, in fact, she had died as a result of an accident that occurred near the end of book two. All these things fit together. Yeah. People really like that character I heard from readers. Yeah. Both in, you know, from the beginning that people really responded to April Woo because she was such a contrast to to Haley. And so I can't remember at this point.

00:14:04:17 - 00:14:38:23 CHRIS It was a couple few years ago when I came up with the idea of, of making her something that wasn't actually reality. Yeah. In Haley's life and so it accomplished, you know, some pretty obvious goals. One is I can keep her in the series. Now, most of the other authors in this genre have you know, it's not just one I mean, it's not just one character.

00:14:38:23 - 00:15:10:11 CHRIS There's usually a cast of revolving characters around your central protagonist. So I could keep her in that in the series, even though she suffers this dramatic and untimely demise, but also because she's a I'm going to say the word the G word ghost. Uh huh. But let me I'll circle back to that in a second. But also, you know, because she takes that form, she can appear anywhere.

00:15:10:11 - 00:15:26:04 CHRIS Yeah, at any time. Yeah. Wherever Haley goes. Yeah. Which for me was just a brilliant solution to to the problems of like, well, how they how do you explain, you know, so-and-so turns up in Paris, France or whatever.

00:15:26:04 - 00:15:26:13 DAVID Yeah.

00:15:26:21 - 00:16:00:05 CHRIS So what I do explore in the devil you know is, you know, I leave it open to interpretation. Exactly what April Woo is. Is she is she the angel on on Haley's shoulder, or is it that shoulder, the devil on her? Whichever. Is it just kind of some aspect of Haley's, you know, inner voice, whatever it is. Yeah.

00:16:00:20 - 00:16:34:13 CHRIS That's so much dark side. I mean, it's just another side. Yeah, because. Because Haley can be somewhat two dimensional, despite all, you know, what we've already talked about in terms of her alcoholism and and, and her friendship with Haley, with April Woo, So far, at least in this series, there's just not a whole lot more going on in her life because she's very I wanted to create this very single minded character she runs.

00:16:34:13 - 00:16:55:21 CHRIS We know that she runs, you know, but that's a solitary activity. Obviously. She boxes and and and exercises and keeps physically fit again relatively solitary activities. So I've forgotten what your question was. But hopefully I answered it.

00:16:55:21 - 00:17:16:25 DAVID You did. And I was going to say there's two of my favorite things about this book. That's it's hard to say. First of all, I want to make a mention of your third chapter. I'll get to that in a second. But I love April Rule Woo! And that's so brilliant, because if you ever need something explained, she's there to do it.

00:17:17:04 - 00:17:39:08 DAVID If you need just a little bit of levity in the moment, the levity in a really crisis situation is so refreshing. And, you know, it's like it's it's almost an alter ego. I love the contrast because that's another reason it works so well. But another thing you do and I've told you this before, I made a note, I'm going to steal that.

00:17:39:08 - 00:18:10:06 DAVID I already told you I'm going to steal it. Okay. Is your signature foreshadowing that you do at the end of chapters and you do it so well? I don't know of anybody who does that when you do it. I always go, Oh, here comes the foreshadowing. Right? And I'm like, I don't know why I dig that so much, because what you're doing is that here's a character in a scene, and then you go, What you what you're implying is what you don't know is John, in ten years will do this, but in 22 years he did this and that was his demise.

00:18:10:15 - 00:18:15:11 DAVID And I'm definitely going to steal that one. Look, I'm going to write a contract right now. Oh, that's.

00:18:15:11 - 00:18:41:17 CHRIS Fine. That's long as you kind of reference me in some way. But I haven't I haven't seen it done before. And so far I haven't seen anyone do a version of it yet. But yeah, I love doing that. I mean, if I'm doing my job and you as a reader are hooked into a character and care about the character, personally, I want to know, you know, what happens to them.

00:18:41:17 - 00:19:08:14 CHRIS It just is satisfying. Sure. And plus, I usually will. I'll make a point of mentioning how, look, if they're interacting with Haley Joel and there they are in one of my books, it's probably in a moment of extreme drama or crisis. So this is a big moment in that person's life, Right? And Haley is a part of it.

00:19:08:23 - 00:19:43:14 CHRIS Excuse me. So usually in those foreshadowing, I will mention something about if that character, you know, how Haley Joel potentially changed the direction of their life. And sometimes I might say that she didn't at all, that they didn't ever think about her again. But they were part they shared this moment of of extreme dramatic crisis. Not everybody loves the device.

00:19:44:10 - 00:19:46:06 CHRIS You know, there's I don't know.

00:19:46:18 - 00:19:49:19 DAVID But but who cares? Well, I mean, who cares if not.

00:19:49:19 - 00:19:52:01 CHRIS Everyone want to be loved by everybody, honestly.

00:19:52:06 - 00:19:53:21 DAVID But you're not going to be.

00:19:54:00 - 00:20:25:01 CHRIS I'm not going to be. So I give up on that goal and go ahead and do it. And it fluctuates from book to book, how much I put in there. But I think there is there are two there are two versions of it in this book that were, for me, almost two of the most emotional moments in the book are foreshadowed one of two different, very disparate characters.

00:20:25:01 - 00:20:35:08 DAVID One thing I would also say about this book, while we're on the topic of this book, I mean, what we're talking about it is the extreme violence. I don't I'm sure.

00:20:35:08 - 00:20:37:04 DAVID The other books were violent.

00:20:37:28 - 00:20:54:26 DAVID But this one just felt the cartel activities. Now there was a lot more reference than actually happening, but it led me. It led my mind down some paths. I'm like, Did people really do that?

00:20:56:26 - 00:21:09:15 DAVID I had a note here when I got to chapter 25. Javier's story ten days earlier, Christmas Day, and I'm just reading this and it's told it's in italics, so I'm trying to remember why it was italics.

00:21:09:24 - 00:21:28:21 CHRIS It's italics because presumably he's telling the story to another one of the younger cartel guys and all all the everything that said in Spanish, but it's translated for the reader is in italics. Perfect. If it's Spanish and not translated, it's in Roman.

00:21:29:03 - 00:21:35:05 DAVID Got it. I just put this big word sic on it. And this happens, doesn't it?

00:21:35:05 - 00:21:51:22 CHRIS This girl. I don't want to I don't want to go into, like the specifics of it because I think, you know, I've tried to, you know, hopefully people go, Oh my God, I went this way to get the chapter 25, and they'll go, Oh, what happens? And people will go, Oh, just wait until you get there.

00:21:51:23 - 00:21:53:19 DAVID So I don't want to talk about it.

00:21:53:19 - 00:21:56:22 CHRIS Yes, this does happen. Yes, absolutely.

00:21:56:23 - 00:22:03:13 DAVID See, it's it's breathtaking. I mean, it's disturbing and it's worth the price of admission.

00:22:04:27 - 00:22:06:12 CHRIS Well, that was my intent. Yeah.

00:22:07:05 - 00:22:08:13 DAVID So I won't say what it is. Yeah.

00:22:08:13 - 00:22:19:29 CHRIS Yeah. I mean, I was I honestly, I was. I had some reservations. I thought the word probably not reservations. It was apprehension or apprehension.

00:22:19:29 - 00:22:20:07 DAVID Sure.

00:22:20:07 - 00:22:33:12 CHRIS Yeah. It was apprehension about including it. But I knew I look the the main device, the main threat is something that we've seen before.

00:22:33:12 - 00:22:33:22 DAVID Yeah.

00:22:34:04 - 00:23:06:21 CHRIS And so not often, but we've seen it before and we've read about it before. The main event and again, I'm being purposefully vague because I want people to read it fresh without a lot of expectations. I just needed to turn the screws again, you know, because if people think like, Oh, okay, you know, I've, I remember reading. I mean, it's based on the the main event, right?

00:23:06:21 - 00:23:24:06 CHRIS It's based on a news event that happened. I don't know, about 20 years ago, 15 years ago here in California. And if people get there and they think that's horrible and they're experiencing some of that visceral.

00:23:24:06 - 00:23:24:22 DAVID Anxiety.

00:23:24:22 - 00:23:32:03 CHRIS Anxiety and dread, and then if you hit them with like, oh, you think that's bad, right?

00:23:32:14 - 00:23:33:28 DAVID And that's what you did. Yeah.

00:23:34:04 - 00:24:22:08 CHRIS But I had apprehension about it. And and that section that you're referring to, chapter 25 could have been easily excised without changing really anything. Yeah, but I wanted to, I wanted it there because I, I present the members of this cartel gang who are responsible for a lot of the mayhem that occurs in the book. I'm giving you a lot of their character, and I'm giving you a lot of back story and they don't do anything really very horrible violence wise until the end of the book.

00:24:22:08 - 00:24:56:29 CHRIS Yeah. So before that point, I want the reader to understand like, okay, I've shown you these, these guys as being fairly banal, ordinary dudes, but they're capable of this violence. And, and luckily, my wonderful editor agreed that it was a good addition to the book and I wholeheartedly endorsed keeping it in.

00:24:57:09 - 00:25:03:18 DAVID Let's give props to your editor, Emily Bessler. She is a magnificent human being.

00:25:04:13 - 00:25:05:06 CHRIS An editor.

00:25:05:19 - 00:25:26:07 DAVID She I met her at Thriller Fest. I hear nothing but glowing reviews. And you told me something in confidence and I wonder if it's cool to tell it because I was so impressed with this. I told this to Tammy and she's like, Wow, those people exist. People like that exist. And I'm like, according to Chris. And that was.

00:25:26:29 - 00:25:59:18 CHRIS I think you're referring to the the idea and I've heard this said about Emily from another author, and I may have even heard Emily essentially confessed this truth during a book event in Savannah, Georgia, and that was that when she buys a book, she's not investing in a title or any particular book or title. She's investing in the author.

00:26:00:01 - 00:26:29:12 CHRIS So good or bad, whatever that, you know, book might do in the future, She she believes in the person who created that book. And despite whatever the vagaries of the business of, you know, whatever, however that book is received, she's you know, she is invested in what that author might do in the future.

00:26:29:13 - 00:26:43:04 DAVID That's so impressive. It's it's heartwarming not to get old fashioned, but it's you just don't see that these days. It's you know, if your bottom line didn't work and love, you may not sorry you're out. You know.

00:26:43:05 - 00:26:48:19 CHRIS I, I consider myself very fortunate, you know, with with Emily Bessler.

00:26:48:29 - 00:26:57:28 DAVID Ben, kudos. We're going to take a short break. When we come back, I've got a couple of words that you really like.

00:27:00:00 - 00:27:00:19 CHRIS Too much.

00:27:01:22 - 00:27:01:25 DAVID And.

00:27:01:29 - 00:27:18:25 DAVID You be the judge. And two things that I find thriller writers have started. I'm starting to see more of it, and I wonder why. So we're with Chris Hardy. The book is The Devil You Know. We'll be right back. On the Thriller zone.

00:27:18:25 - 00:27:21:23 DAVID And now back to the show. Hey, folks, welcome back.

00:27:21:23 - 00:27:29:12 DAVID Chris Hardy, the devil. You know David Temple here, Thriller Zone, talking about a couple of words that Chris really, really like.

00:27:29:12 - 00:27:34:18 CHRIS I'm about to leave. How do I take this microphone off? Oh, that's right. I don't I'm not wearing one.

00:27:35:08 - 00:27:36:27 DAVID No deeper state.

00:27:36:27 - 00:27:49:07 DAVID Operative. We talked about this last was it the last book of the book before I got to bust your chops on something every once in a while, right? I mean, it can't be all sugar and spice in unicorns.

00:27:49:07 - 00:27:49:29 CHRIS Or it could be.

00:27:50:29 - 00:27:52:18 DAVID Okay, we'll go back to sugar.

00:27:52:18 - 00:27:58:13 CHRIS And why do I do that? Or is it? I thought I did it a lot in book three.

00:27:58:24 - 00:28:09:15 DAVID Maybe. That's. Well, yes, drum. And so here we go. Deep State, Savage Road, Storm Rising. The devil you know, Storm Rising is when I really first know I don't I don't know.

00:28:09:18 - 00:28:10:20 DAVID What deep state.

00:28:11:17 - 00:28:13:03 DAVID I would never have known differently.

00:28:13:04 - 00:28:15:18 CHRIS Well that's because it's not revealed until the very.

00:28:15:18 - 00:28:38:27 DAVID Write the book then Savage wrote didn't think about it but storm reason is when the conversation story I'm like, boy, you really like that phrase deep state operative. And then with this one I started underlining after about the point, I was like, He's still doing that. I started underlining it. I'm giving you a little bit of grief. It's not that many times, but you know, when you get something in your head and then also every time you see it, you're like, Oh.

00:28:38:27 - 00:28:41:01 DAVID He's doing it again.

00:28:41:01 - 00:28:44:25 DAVID That's one of them. The other is Strode and Scrum.

00:28:46:02 - 00:28:48:03 CHRIS Strode, Strode.

00:28:49:09 - 00:28:51:27 DAVID They strode. He strode instead of.

00:28:52:19 - 00:28:53:09 DAVID Walked.

00:28:53:28 - 00:28:54:29 CHRIS Across.

00:28:54:29 - 00:28:58:12 DAVID The room. Strode, strode. Lots of strode.

00:28:58:12 - 00:29:04:03 CHRIS I did not know there was a lot of strode in there. I'm going to have to go back and count does doesn't matter. This scrum.

00:29:04:05 - 00:29:05:16 DAVID Scrum lot of scrum is.

00:29:05:16 - 00:29:05:26 CHRIS A great.

00:29:05:26 - 00:29:11:19 DAVID Word. It is a scrum. I didn't know what scrum was until. Yeah, I know I should know that, but that's my ignorance.

00:29:11:23 - 00:29:12:05 CHRIS Okay.

00:29:12:20 - 00:29:13:14 DAVID Bunch of people.

00:29:13:15 - 00:29:27:21 CHRIS Yeah, yeah. Bunch of people. And budget implies a certain amount of kind of a little bit of a more than just a crowd there. But you. It's like a gaggle.

00:29:27:21 - 00:29:29:07 DAVID Yeah. Yeah. I always like to gaggle.

00:29:29:07 - 00:29:36:20 CHRIS Gaggle is another one. Maybe I should alternate between Scrum or maybe I can combine the two words and make a Scrabble.

00:29:36:21 - 00:29:37:17 DAVID A Scrabble.

00:29:37:25 - 00:29:43:25 CHRIS And scraggy. I got Jonathan to laugh, thank goodness. Can we just call it it? I mean, that's it.

00:29:43:25 - 00:29:48:10 DAVID Folks. Thanks for coming. Take care. Webster. Merriam Webster, please. We're going.

00:29:48:10 - 00:29:52:11 CHRIS To Scrabble. I invented. That's another thing that I brought to the genre.

00:29:52:22 - 00:29:55:15 DAVID And to the thriller zone. You heard it here first, folks.

00:29:55:15 - 00:29:59:25 CHRIS Yeah, New, new language being created on a podcast.

00:29:59:25 - 00:30:00:04 DAVID Yeah.

00:30:00:27 - 00:30:02:11 CHRIS In Glendale, California.

00:30:02:16 - 00:30:27:15 DAVID And here's a question. The first I don't remember. I think the first time I read it, I want to say somebody is going to call me on this. I Bread four is the first person that pops in my head when I recall this phrase, and I'm going to hope I'm saying it right. Eidetic memory, right? Yes. Okay. Vivid retention of visual images.

00:30:28:07 - 00:30:31:04 DAVID I seem to see that popping up more and more now.

00:30:31:04 - 00:30:32:02 CHRIS As a device.

00:30:32:02 - 00:30:57:23 DAVID As a device. Now, I'm not calling you divisive. I'm just saying and I like it, but I'm like, because it's one of those there's I'm going to call it a trick. It's one of those things that are tricks that I go, who I like that is kind of like April who isn't there. It's that thing. It's a super power that you give somebody that is available.

00:30:58:01 - 00:31:01:16 DAVID It is true, does happen and I dig it.

00:31:03:04 - 00:31:04:27 CHRIS Are you making a observation or.

00:31:04:27 - 00:31:34:23 DAVID I'm making an observation and I'm saying I'm seeing it more pop up more often in more and more writers. So I'm like, you know, if I say, all right, let's go with Jack Reacher. Jack Reacher is big and he can knock you out with a punch if all of a sudden that might not be the greatest example. But if you if you were really big and you Oh, I can knock you out with one punch.

00:31:34:23 - 00:31:58:22 DAVID That's okay. That's great. Superhero. You're not going to have a super power of. I can look through that wall, but I direct memory is something that you can go, Ooh, that's a clever thing That and I wonder if you could get it and lose it like you'll hear sometimes. Oh, Chris got hit on the head and now he has a magnifying and he can.

00:31:58:22 - 00:31:59:10 CHRIS See.

00:31:59:20 - 00:32:00:08 DAVID Blah, blah, blah.

00:32:00:10 - 00:32:52:04 CHRIS Mm hmm. Well, I intentionally developed Haley as in what was, in my opinion, a fairly every woman, not a superwoman right now. Some people, especially in the earlier books, some readers have said, oh, you know, she's just a superwoman. I'm really perplexed by that reaction and critique because she really doesn't have much at her disposal in the way of her own powers or, you know, greater power behind her like some big super duper spy agency or the FBI or NSA or anything.

00:32:52:04 - 00:33:24:07 CHRIS She she generally solves her problems much in the way that I would solve those problems. You know, I, I but I did decide to give her one special skill or talent with the memory. But I don't think it really it's you know, she doesn't wear like a cape. No, that's Charlie pulls it out. You know, once or maybe twice in a in a book.

00:33:24:23 - 00:34:08:27 CHRIS And I would be surprised if people would even mention that skill or gift if they were a reader. A fan was describing Haley, Jill to another, you know, uninitiated. Yeah. Reader I think they would leave that out. I don't I just don't think it's a big but I think in every book that barely makes it barely makes its presence known in this book except for like she remembers a license plate number and mentions it to the fellow who's helping her.

00:34:08:28 - 00:34:11:21 DAVID Is that Well, I saw he goes, How do you remember that? Yeah, I saw.

00:34:11:21 - 00:34:24:28 CHRIS It and that's it. And then she she kind of goes out of her way to say like, oh, she didn't, you know, she kind of hides the skill. She doesn't really want to get into it because she finds it a distraction to getting the job done.

00:34:25:00 - 00:34:33:15 DAVID And by the way, I like it. I like it's a it's a great little device. And and it's like if you were using it in every other chapter, then I'd go, Oh.

00:34:33:15 - 00:34:34:10 CHRIS Jeez, yeah.

00:34:34:21 - 00:35:06:01 DAVID But into that same point, like taming or watching a show the other day, The Citadel. And one thing that some television does that, you know, fortunately Thriller writers don't do is that you'll have these guys going, they're schemed on a hill, they have submachine guns. There's four of them. All you have to do is go and you know that the guy, even though he's criss crossing, he's going to get hit, but he doesn't get hit and he'll turn around.

00:35:06:01 - 00:35:08:15 DAVID While he's skiing. Pooh, Pooh!

00:35:08:16 - 00:35:10:20 DAVID Pooh. And with a nine mm. Pick them off.

00:35:10:21 - 00:35:11:02 CHRIS Yeah.

00:35:11:07 - 00:35:31:08 DAVID And I'm like, really? Because I'm insulted. Because you really did that. It's not going to happen. So sometimes what I'm getting at is when you see a trick or device like this and you use it sparingly, I go, Oh, great, It's not a super, super power, but it's a great power and it's unique and it's cool. All right.

00:35:31:08 - 00:35:40:11 DAVID Here's the segment I'm going to get off of that is the Exwick registry, which that one I did not know, which is a recall audio.

00:35:40:11 - 00:35:41:06 CHRIS Vince Yeah.

00:35:41:15 - 00:35:50:18 DAVID And that's amazing. Have you ever met anybody with that ability? Just so basically you hear something in you, you remember it wholesale, right?

00:35:51:21 - 00:36:22:03 CHRIS I have not. Wow. Yeah, I just I think I did a bit of research and I think those two abilities sometimes go hand in hand. And so, you know, just for the pure sake of avoiding repetition, I thought, you know, to provide some elaboration or development on this aspect of her character. Yeah.

00:36:23:13 - 00:36:37:26 DAVID Well, I want to kind of start the wrap up by saying I thoroughly enjoyed this book. I mean, it was it it started like the very first opening. I'm going to go to one thing.

00:36:37:26 - 00:36:38:28 CHRIS Yeah, I mean.

00:36:39:18 - 00:37:05:28 DAVID Just the opening line. Prolog When you walked into the living room, Martin Barnes is roving gaze stopped abruptly on the exclamation point of blood splattered across the white tea tree skirt that never looked like snow anyway, with one sentence. You've painted such a great open. You make me instantly go white who weren't black white. Oh, Christmas. All right.

00:37:05:28 - 00:37:34:07 DAVID And in the skirt of all, it never looks like snow. Anyway, that's so it starts out of the gate with a bang. It keeps going. But boy, your third act. That's what I was telling you on the phone the other day. I'm like, Dude, this third act, my palms were sweating and I was like, Wow, he's really he's pushing it between the hairpin turns of these roads and the chases.

00:37:34:07 - 00:37:40:02 DAVID And when you get to the windmills of the I mean, it's packed full of it.

00:37:40:09 - 00:38:03:24 CHRIS Well, it's interesting that you describe it as a third act, as if it's a screenplay or story or film. But no, I mean, it's it that's how I write them. You know, I can't shake the three over three decades of screenwriting that I that I've done. So, you know, it is I don't I could I mean, you know what the plot point is?

00:38:03:24 - 00:38:24:17 CHRIS And I what the plot point is that that divides the second act from the third act. I don't really want to bring it up now on this podcast, but and then there was one other thought I had when you were just talking about that. Oh, well, it's good to hear that You responded. Excuse me, I'm getting all choked up.

00:38:24:17 - 00:38:51:27 CHRIS I'm a little emotional right now to hear you respond that way because it was a departure, certainly not from the series, but from the third book, the third book I had written in the depths of the pandemic. And and we were all going through some shit. Yeah. As a collectively as a country then and and.

00:38:52:15 - 00:38:53:18 DAVID Lots of storms writing.

00:38:53:22 - 00:39:25:04 CHRIS Lots so that that book very much reflected those times. And I'm really proud of that book. And I, and I, I love some of the things that I did in it, but after finishing it I really needed to do something different. And what I was determined to do with the Devil you know, was write something that was not as difficult.

00:39:25:04 - 00:39:54:17 CHRIS It's not politically. It was very topical. Storm Rising was very topical, Yes. And there's some kind of topicality. Is that a word? Yeah, I'm throwing that out. It's that's not a new word like Crackle right now. It's crackle. I mean, any book about this, you know, suddenly, you know, Supreme Court justices suddenly once again, my book has become topical, but it's not in the same way.

00:39:56:05 - 00:40:42:24 CHRIS You know, it's almost, you know, the Supreme Court justices and practically a MacGuffin. I just wanted to write a straight up thriller that just took readers. It's a it's a it's an abused word in our genre, but the literal flow. Right. So it's good to hear that it I potentially could have succeeded and delivered that that kind of just pure action, thrilling, dread inducing, a satisfying, cathartic story with like I said, with, I think, some real emotionalism, not just for Hayley and what she's going through, her personal changes.

00:40:42:24 - 00:40:51:22 CHRIS Yes. Also, I think, deliver some real emotional arcs with those, you know, subordinate characters.

00:40:52:08 - 00:41:10:01 DAVID Well, there's two things I want to make sure I say. And in and I mean this in a complimentary way, it's like if I have friends come to me because they know I'm reading an interview, reading so many books and interviewing so many authors, and they say, Well, how would you describe it? Just do just give me a logline, right?

00:41:10:01 - 00:41:26:25 DAVID Just give me one liner and I'll go above up. I'm like, This is the first time that I came up with and I don't have an official logline, but it's like it felt and this is the perhaps one of the best compliments I can pay you. It felt like a female Jason Bourne movie.

00:41:27:06 - 00:41:27:15 CHRIS Hmm.

00:41:28:09 - 00:41:53:20 DAVID That's how it. And I love Jason Bourne movies. I've watched them all. I can watch them back to back continuously and especially by that third act slash back end of the story and the little trigger that you have happened that I did not see coming. And I see I generally see almost everything coming. I did not see that thing coming that you do at the end.

00:41:53:20 - 00:42:10:11 DAVID I'm like, I literally had to start in the like interrogation room. She goes, What? I'm like, Well, I didn't see this coming. And now I'm perplexed how I did not see that coming. I should have seen it coming. I usually see them coming and I didn't see it coming. So that was amazing. Let's close with this with two things.

00:42:10:28 - 00:42:13:15 DAVID Is Haley chill going? Come on back.

00:42:13:15 - 00:42:14:27 CHRIS I'm sure she's going to come back.

00:42:14:28 - 00:42:19:24 DAVID Okay, good. Anything else you're working on that you'd like to tell my listeners.

00:42:19:24 - 00:42:21:02 DAVID Of the Thriller zone about?

00:42:21:26 - 00:42:31:23 CHRIS I'm working on my tan. I'm working on my looks so good. 200 yard butterfly, huh? I'm working on.

00:42:32:02 - 00:42:33:18 DAVID What were you going in the backyard? You show me.

00:42:33:18 - 00:42:42:05 CHRIS Earlier? Oh, I'm working on growing some foxtail agave plants from seeds. I see all that. Yeah, I'm taking some time off.

00:42:42:05 - 00:42:42:20 DAVID Good for you.

00:42:42:21 - 00:42:43:02 CHRIS Yeah.

00:42:43:08 - 00:42:48:08 DAVID And are you doing that Foxtail Agave So that you can make your own tequila? You tequila?

00:42:48:08 - 00:42:53:11 CHRIS Not, you know, I'll. I'll try that, but I don't think that's the right agave.

00:42:53:11 - 00:42:57:17 DAVID Okay. And, and speaking of which, we'll be having will we be having agave at our little.

00:42:57:17 - 00:43:07:07 CHRIS Soiree this evening? I hope we are. I think it's definitely interview. Yeah. Hopefully we'll just leave it at that and, you know, we'll drink the tequila, but there won't be any of the.

00:43:08:09 - 00:43:12:24 DAVID Right we won't be doing the two. Yeah. Because that would be terrible. That would.

00:43:12:24 - 00:43:13:12 CHRIS Be terrible.

00:43:13:12 - 00:43:28:28 DAVID All right. I'm not going to ask my standard. No, I'm going to ask that because I do that on every single show. I just did it the other day with the Don Winslow, my my buddy. And and that is and I know you've told me before, but it's one of those great little it's my signature clothes. Your best piece of writing advice.

00:43:28:28 - 00:43:54:22 DAVID What I will not do is we won't do Rapidfire questions because we got a we got a bounce for our party. But, you know, you run across, you've spoke I love it. You speak at bookstores and book signings and so forth. And a lot of avid writers go to those and they go mad, I get to sit down, listen to Chris Hardy talk about his book, and I'm like, What's one of the very first things they want to know is like, what your what?

00:43:54:22 - 00:43:59:04 DAVID Your secret source? What's your advice? What would you tell me as an aspiring writer?

00:43:59:14 - 00:44:00:10 DAVID Hmm?

00:44:00:26 - 00:44:06:10 DAVID And I know you got them and I gave you enough tee up time that you could have written a book on that, for crying out loud. So go ahead and take your.

00:44:08:17 - 00:44:11:15 CHRIS Advice to aspiring writer.

00:44:11:21 - 00:44:16:06 DAVID Yeah, somebody who wants to be able to do what you do. Yeah. And do it as well as you do.

00:44:16:06 - 00:44:35:23 CHRIS It is a question that's asked of authors. And so there's several stark answers. And you know me, I always try to come up with something different and unexpected. My advice would be, Don't be boring.

00:44:37:15 - 00:44:45:19 DAVID Hold on a second. I got to write them and I'm Don't be or we almost don't. Can you just close up when we're done? Don't be boring.

00:44:45:20 - 00:44:46:10 CHRIS Boring.

00:44:46:10 - 00:44:47:10 DAVID Okay. Yeah.

00:44:47:27 - 00:44:48:17 CHRIS If you in.

00:44:48:17 - 00:44:50:11 DAVID That call to Webster's just put that on.

00:44:50:11 - 00:45:01:25 CHRIS Hold. If you if you can look people, it's people's attention spans are shrinking by the day.

00:45:01:26 - 00:45:03:01 DAVID By the day.

00:45:03:09 - 00:45:42:12 CHRIS And I like I had intimated earlier in this Sterling discussion that I was trained and brought up in a world where people hated to read. And so I had if I wanted to survive and keep paying the mortgage and send the kids to the college I needed to keep, I not only had to like keep a reader engaged, but I had to convince them to read past page three.

00:45:43:02 - 00:46:08:03 CHRIS And I think the same challenge exists in writing these things because there's a lot of these things out there, and I don't know how you shop for books, but if you're just wandering into a bookstore and you don't know already, like what a great writer that Chris Hardy is right, that you haven't listened or watched the thriller zone.

00:46:08:04 - 00:46:08:20 DAVID Thank you.

00:46:09:26 - 00:46:31:04 CHRIS They might just open up the book to any old page, and that's what I I'm just going to open up any old page. I'm going to open that first line, which is a good first line, but I'm going to open up in the middle. Yeah, because is this guy bringing it? Yes. Every every page or is he going to like, write me a great first line or first paragraph?

00:46:31:04 - 00:46:32:17 CHRIS Brilliant. And then just.

00:46:33:00 - 00:46:33:18 DAVID Peter out.

00:46:33:18 - 00:46:34:24 CHRIS You know, phone it in.

00:46:34:25 - 00:46:35:05 DAVID Yeah.

00:46:35:15 - 00:46:39:22 CHRIS So I look at this page, I just open at random. Chapter 13.

00:46:39:29 - 00:46:40:25 DAVID What's the first line?

00:46:41:07 - 00:46:43:16 CHRIS Do it. It's a text message.

00:46:43:16 - 00:46:44:16 DAVID Do it. Yeah.

00:46:44:20 - 00:47:16:10 CHRIS Okay. Sure. Ignored the text. You know, it's like I'm already like ten. Yeah. So not a lot of frazzle I'll keep this gradual to a minimum. I don't even know what the words me word means means anymore and be dynamic in your writing. Everything has to count. Everything has to be punchy and jump off the page. In sum, don't be boring.

00:47:16:10 - 00:47:18:08 DAVID Yeah, don't be boring.

00:47:18:09 - 00:47:18:21 CHRIS Don't be.

00:47:18:21 - 00:47:24:00 DAVID Boring. I think we're going to do t shirts. Hashtag don't be boring.

00:47:24:00 - 00:47:26:03 CHRIS Tony. That covers all bases. He covers.

00:47:26:03 - 00:47:26:07 DAVID All.

00:47:26:07 - 00:47:31:14 CHRIS Bases. Any, you know, write your way, you know, or any of that stuff that you hear from. Don't be.

00:47:31:14 - 00:47:32:14 DAVID Boring. Don't be.

00:47:32:14 - 00:47:42:14 CHRIS Boring. And then when you're when you're hopefully there wasn't a boring moment in our podcast when you're talking about your books, when you're in everything, don't be boring.

00:47:42:21 - 00:47:49:24 DAVID And I didn't even bring up pot pants. You're an plotter. So aren't you glad I didn't even bring that up? I didn't ask you which one you were.

00:47:49:24 - 00:47:55:14 CHRIS I just would have remained mute. Yeah, just I'm. I'm gone on strike with that question. I just don't.

00:47:55:14 - 00:48:05:25 DAVID Answer. Yeah, we just don't do it. And you know what? Like Don Winslow said, I bring him up only because we were talking about him earlier. He goes every, every sentence. He's got to pay rent. I don't love that phrase.

00:48:05:26 - 00:48:12:14 CHRIS That's another that's a better that's a kinder, more poetic way of saying don't be boring.

00:48:12:14 - 00:48:22:28 DAVID Yeah, but I like, don't be boring. And that is going to be our new hashtag. So this is school. This is fun. I mean, we squeezed a lot in in 47 and a half minutes.

00:48:22:28 - 00:48:23:29 CHRIS Face to face.

00:48:23:29 - 00:48:26:04 DAVID Face to face. You like to do this again?

00:48:26:07 - 00:48:36:21 CHRIS I love it this way. It's so much better. I'm sick of staring into my computer zoom or any of those things. It's so much more fun to be in the room.

00:48:36:21 - 00:49:00:17 DAVID Yeah, here's what I want to do. And this is. This is almost an hour after show notes, and I'm going to keep going because we're tight on time. If there was a way that Jonathan, my buddy who is a media mogul, would be open to doing this and I could just crank out multiples, I would love to do this again.

00:49:00:26 - 00:49:04:22 DAVID And you have author friends in this town. We could sit and.

00:49:05:08 - 00:49:05:18 CHRIS Yeah.

00:49:05:28 - 00:49:06:19 DAVID Dial it in.

00:49:06:22 - 00:49:13:05 CHRIS Even even more than one one on one. You could get a little, you know, roundtable.

00:49:13:07 - 00:49:43:06 DAVID Well, now it's funny you should say that because I was talking to someone recently. This is this is this is going to show how my age, one of my heroes growing up, I loved listening to before he became Ben Franklin, while FM is Phil Donahue, I before he kind of went off the deep end. Yeah. And then I replaced him with Charlie Rose because the magic of Charlie Rose before things went kooky, right?

00:49:43:07 - 00:49:54:14 DAVID Is one on one, no frills, just two people talking. I love that. And I would love to do more of it. Yeah. This weight right here is magic.

00:49:54:14 - 00:49:55:25 CHRIS Yeah. Yeah, I agree.

00:49:56:04 - 00:49:56:26 DAVID Thank you, Chris.

00:49:57:08 - 00:49:58:01 CHRIS Thank you, David.

00:49:59:09 - 00:50:21:11 DAVID How cool is that, folks? Chris Hardy, the such a good two. Always fun with Chris. That's the thing I like about this guy. And you don't find that with every author but just to be able to shoot off the cuff. So thanks again, Chris, for making Haley Joel come alive. And I hate to use the cliches like page turner and, you know, jump off the page, but it truly is that way.

00:50:21:11 - 00:50:32:29 DAVID Pick up a copy with you, for crying out loud. Do I have to come to your house and hunt you down? And folks make it a good one. I'm David Temple. I'll see you next time for another edition of the Thriller Zone. Bam.

00:50:33:12 - 00:50:36:16 DAVID Bam, bam, bam.

00:50:36:16 - 00:50:46:27 DAVID The first half of the first. Join us next week when the Thriller zone welcomes Matthew Quirk, author of Inside the.

00:50:46:27 - 00:51:05:04 DAVID Rat book Quick Note II to my second camera guy. Oh, by the way, I caught the traffic going into San Diego. I'm glad I'm going the other way.

00:51:05:23 - 00:51:07:02 Speaker 4 So for the first time.

00:54:48:22 - 00:54:53:08 DAVID On the next Thriller zone, Chris Hardy and the Devil you know.

00:54:53:08 - 00:54:54:09 DAVID Welcome to the show.

00:54:54:09 - 00:54:57:16 DAVID It's dude, I just want to do something different for you and me.

00:54:57:25 - 00:54:58:07 CHRIS Face to.

00:54:58:07 - 00:55:09:00 DAVID Face, face to face. So we're going to be talking about this beautiful book. There is so much I want to say I want to shoot out of the gate with this. This is your best work yet.

00:55:09:08 - 00:55:11:14 CHRIS Wow. Yeah. Well, thank you.

00:55:11:14 - 00:55:26:27 DAVID Brash, original woman protagonist had all the information that you need without giving me everything, I've got a couple of words that you really like.

00:55:28:04 - 00:55:28:24 CHRIS Too much.

00:55:29:09 - 00:55:32:11 DAVID You be the judge. Scrum lot of Scrum is a great word.

00:55:32:11 - 00:55:33:11 CHRIS It's like a gaggle.

00:55:33:11 - 00:55:34:28 DAVID Yeah. Yeah. I always like to gaggle.

00:55:34:28 - 00:55:41:07 CHRIS Maybe I should alternate between Scrum. Or maybe I can combine the two words and make a Scrabble.

00:55:41:08 - 00:55:42:04 DAVID A Scrabble?

00:55:42:16 - 00:55:45:21 DAVID Webster Merriam Webster plays this opening line.

00:55:45:21 - 00:56:04:22 DAVID When you walked into the living room, Martin Barnes is roving gaze stopped abruptly on the exclamation point of blood splattered across the white tree skirt that never looked like snow. Anyway, with one sentence. You've painted such a great open. You make me instantly go, What? Who? What?

00:56:04:26 - 00:56:18:11 CHRIS I just wanted to write a straight up thriller, just pure action, dread inducing. But also I think, deliver some real emotional arcs with those, you know, subordinate characters.

00:56:18:20 - 00:56:24:12 DAVID Another thing you do and I've told you this before I made a note, I'm going to steal that. I already told you, I'm going to steal it.

00:56:24:16 - 00:56:24:26 CHRIS Okay.

00:56:24:29 - 00:56:30:18 DAVID Is your signature foreshadowing that you do at the end of chapters? I don't know why I dig that so much.

00:56:30:21 - 00:56:42:03 CHRIS Yeah, I love doing that. I mean, if I'm doing my job and you as a reader are hooked into a character and care about the character personally, I want to know what to them.

00:56:42:12 - 00:57:02:07 DAVID One thing I will also say about this book is the extreme violence. I mean, it's disturbing and it's worth the price of admission I got to bust your chops on something every once in a while, right? I mean, it can't be all sugar and spice in unicorns.

CHRIS It could be.

That's Chris Hauty and the Devil you know. Coming May 17th to the Thriller zone.