From Elk Hunts to Epic Tales: C.J. Box's Journey to #25
On today's 215th episode, host Dave Temple is diving into the wild world of C.J. Box's latest thrill ride, Battle Mountain, the 25th installment in his Joe Pickett series.
Can you believe it? Twenty-five! That’s like a silver anniversary for books! In a conversational style that feels like eavesdropping on a couple of good friends catching up, this episode of the Thriller Zone podcast takes us behind the scenes, as C.J. chats with Dave, as they reminisce about the journey of creating Joe Pickett, a character that has become synonymous with adventure and moral dilemmas in the wilds of Wyoming.
The two friends dive into how Joe has developed over the years, tackling not only wildlife issues but also personal challenges, making him relatable and real. Alongside the laughter and banter, there’s a heartfelt discussion about the significance of strong female characters in the series, particularly Susan Kaney, who challenges Joe in ways that make him confront his own vulnerabilities.
Today's show is a refreshing take on storytelling that highlights the importance of evolving characters in a long-running series while keeping readers hooked.
C.J. peppers the episode with anecdotes, insights, and, of course, the ever-present humor that makes him such a beloved author. Seriously, grab a comfy seat with your favorite drink and settle in for 40 minutes of pure entertainment!
Learn more at CJBox.net ... ORDER CJs BOOK HERE ... and subscribe to thriller fictions #1 podcast, TheThrillerZone.com
Takeaways:
- C.J. Box's passion for writing shines through as he discusses his journey with the Joe Pickett series, emphasizing that success stems from following one's passion rather than chasing trends.
- Falconry is more than just cool birds; it requires dedication, patience, and a unique partnership with nature—C.J. dives into this fascinating world in his latest novel, Battle Mountain.
- In the podcast, C.J. shares how his characters feel authentic and relatable, making readers feel like they're part of a cozy chat with friends around a campfire.
- We highlight the importance of immersing oneself in different genres because it can inspire new ideas and enrich one's writing style—C.J. believes in learning from all types of literature.
Mentioned in this episode:
The Thriller Zone is sponsored by Bob Asher and his new thriller ESCAPE FROM DONETSK.
The Thriller Zone with Dave Temple is presented by rising author Bob Asher and his latest thriller ESCAPE FROM DONETSK, available now from Amazon. Learn more at: BobAsherBooks.Com
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00:00 - None
00:14 - None
00:17 - Introduction to the Thriller Zone Podcast
00:26 - Introduction to Battle Mountain and the Joe Pickett Series
07:27 - The Origins of Joe Pickett
18:03 - The Journey of Writing: Embracing New Characters and Ideas
27:21 - Finding Inspiration in Unexpected Places
32:24 - The Art of Custom Hat Making
37:17 - Transitioning Perspectives on Writing
Speaker A
Welcome to the Thriller Zone podcast.
Speaker B
Hi, everyone.
Speaker B
I'm C.J.
Speaker B
box.
Speaker B
I'm happy once again to be with Dave Temple on the Thriller Zone.
Speaker B
We're discussing Battle Mountain, my 25th novel in the Joe Pickett series.
Speaker B
Can you hear me?
Speaker B
Okay?
Speaker B
I can.
Speaker A
You got a new little rig there, don't you?
Speaker B
I do.
Speaker B
I.
Speaker B
I don't know.
Speaker B
It doesn't always work for me, but yes, I'm trying.
Speaker A
It looks like you're about ready to say, Sean, clear it on Runway two, nine or nine.
Speaker B
No kidding.
Speaker A
It's good to see you, man.
Speaker A
It's been, it's been a.
Speaker A
It's been a minute.
Speaker B
Yeah, it has.
Speaker B
It was last year, though, wasn't it?
Speaker B
Or was it two years ago?
Speaker A
It was last year.
Speaker B
Last year.
Speaker B
Great.
Speaker A
It was three inch teeth, if I recall.
Speaker A
Yeah.
Speaker B
Yep.
Speaker B
That's okay.
Speaker B
I remember we talked about bears.
Speaker B
Yes.
Speaker A
Yeah.
Speaker A
Well, what's interesting.
Speaker A
And I'm just going to shoot out of the gate with this because one thing.
Speaker A
Not only do I get to enjoy your books, of course, but I get to learn something and I'm a huge student.
Speaker A
So last time I'm learning about grizzlies and learn some things I never knew, which is always fascinating.
Speaker A
And now I'm learning about falcons.
Speaker B
Yeah.
Speaker A
Etc.
Speaker A
Thank you for your wealth of knowledge.
Speaker B
Well, my pleasure.
Speaker B
I'm as fascinated in.
Speaker B
As in falcons as just about anything they've been.
Speaker B
That's been kind of an ongoing theme throughout the book since the beginning.
Speaker A
I don't know what it requires, what is required to be involved in falconry, but would you consider yourself one or do you have to have some kind of special schooling for that?
Speaker B
No, I would not consider myself a falconer.
Speaker B
If someone is going to hunt with falcons.
Speaker B
There are regulations in every state to obtain a falconry license.
Speaker B
Just.
Speaker B
And all of the rules and regulations are all adopted from what's called the California Hawking Club, which established these regulations or suggested regulations years ago.
Speaker B
And most states have adopted those.
Speaker B
So once you can pass that test, you can get a falconry license.
Speaker B
But I mean, anybody can say they're a falconer if they have a bird, but that doesn't necessarily make them.
Speaker A
So now I don't want to spend a lot of time on this, but enough to.
Speaker A
To really get rid of some of my curiosity.
Speaker A
So I had a friend back in, in the south and he used to, he had a falcon and he.
Speaker A
What's that little.
Speaker A
It was a hood, so they don't peck at you, which is like, it.
Speaker B
Also calms them down.
Speaker A
But it was fascinating because he'd let it go and it would go miles out and I'm like, oh, there, good luck.
Speaker A
And he would, he would have a call or something and it would come back.
Speaker A
It's just fascinating to me.
Speaker A
Yeah.
Speaker B
And on occasion, that's the thing with falconry, that one of the many things that fascinates me is that when you let that bird go, there's no guarantees it's ever coming back.
Speaker B
You know, there's, there's no way to reel it in, you know, and, and the other thing about falconry is that falconers and falcons develop a kind of partnership.
Speaker B
You don't tame a falcon to do your bidding.
Speaker B
You work with it.
Speaker B
And it takes a lot of time, takes a whole different mindset.
Speaker B
That's why falconers are so unique and odd because they have to devote so much of their lives to these birds that could just fly away.
Speaker A
See, that's what blows my mind.
Speaker A
So you could, you could spend all this kind of money and training and, etc and one day, because wild is wild.
Speaker A
Mother nature knows best, maybe.
Speaker B
That's right.
Speaker A
Take off.
Speaker B
That's right.
Speaker B
And, and sometimes the falcons get injured or attacked by other animals.
Speaker B
You know, I mean, we have sage grouse in this area and that's very popular for falcons here, falconers here to hunt sage grouse, but sage grouse defend themselves by flopping over on their backs and working their little claws like egg beaters and they just tear up.
Speaker A
Falcons, my goodness.
Speaker A
See, See kids, See what you get to learn.
Speaker A
Hanging out with cj.
Speaker A
I love it.
Speaker A
Well, I want to say congratulations.
Speaker A
Golf clap to number 25.
Speaker A
This is a huge deal.
Speaker B
Thank you.
Speaker A
That is, that is such an accomplishment.
Speaker A
I'm so happy for you because I know it's, you know, it's not the easiest business to be in.
Speaker A
Right.
Speaker B
No, I never thought, I, I never thought there'd be a book.
Speaker B
Two, you know, much less a long running series.
Speaker A
Well, you keep the fans entertained and I love that.
Speaker A
I love the fact that, like I said, I'm always learning something.
Speaker A
And I have this other question for Mr.
Speaker A
Outdoorsman.
Speaker A
What has your fishing, or I should say, because I'm from the south, your fishing and hunting been like.
Speaker B
Oh, you mean this year or just in general?
Speaker A
Yeah, this year.
Speaker B
Yeah, this year.
Speaker B
Very, very good.
Speaker B
In fact, I got, I, I use it.
Speaker B
I got my elk three weeks ago and already sharing all that meat with all my daughters who love it.
Speaker B
And that's what, that's what I, you know, I've had that in the book since the beginning, which is true.
Speaker B
I live in a very rural area and this.
Speaker B
And a lot of everybody hunts or if they don't hunt, they want, they want to you to share some elk meat with them.
Speaker B
And like in the post office or grocery store during the fall, early winter, you see people and they say, got your elk yet?
Speaker B
That's how they greet each other, you know.
Speaker B
And you hate to be one of those guys who says, nah, I, I keep missing, you know.
Speaker A
Yeah, yeah.
Speaker A
It makes me think of the T shirt that came out years back.
Speaker A
Got milk and you want to say, got your elk?
Speaker B
Yep.
Speaker B
Got.
Speaker B
Got my elk.
Speaker A
Yep, Got out.
Speaker A
So.
Speaker A
And, and I know fishing is one of your favorite pastimes, I'm guessing in winter, probably not a lot of that going on.
Speaker B
No, there's.
Speaker B
I mean, there's ice fishermen, of course, but.
Speaker B
And I used to do that, but I don't anymore.
Speaker B
There are places you can fly fish any month of the year, and I do some of that.
Speaker B
We, we have natural hot springs in a few of the rivers here that open it up and the fish tend to hang, hang around there.
Speaker B
But getting to those openings and standing in icy water requires a lot of fortitude that I don't know if I have anymore.
Speaker A
Yeah, I was going to say if you, if you want to ask me, hey, Dave, want to join me to stand in ice cold water up to friends and do that for half a day.
Speaker A
I'm gonna go, you know, I'm gonna see you back at the lodge while.
Speaker B
Floating chunks of ice come down and hit you and from the back.
Speaker B
Yeah, yeah.
Speaker A
No, no, thank you.
Speaker A
Well, I want to get on to Battle Mountain, which I've got one little note here, I'm gonna say for a little bit later because it.
Speaker A
One of my little curiosities.
Speaker A
But once again, and right here on the front, John Sanford, one of my favorite authors of all time, says, Joe Pickett's one man you want by your side in a crisis.
Speaker A
And that's one thing I always walk away with, C.J.
Speaker A
as, as Joe is the guy I want on my side.
Speaker A
And it makes me wonder.
Speaker A
And, and this is the very first question.
Speaker A
I don't think I asked you this last year, but do you remember the day, the time, the time of year, the event when you first came up with this Joe Pickett?
Speaker B
I, you know, I.
Speaker B
The exact day and time and date?
Speaker B
No, but I remember in the process it would have been at least 36, 37 years ago when I was first working on, you know, I was A journalist.
Speaker B
And I was starting to work on a manuscript.
Speaker B
I was, I was doing write alongs with a local game warden while I was working on a little weekly newspaper.
Speaker B
And I wanted to do this story about the modern west based on the Endangered Species act, based on a real thing that happened in Wyoming.
Speaker B
When black footed ferrets were discovered, they were thought extinct.
Speaker B
And when they were discovered, everybody in the little town around them knew they were there, but nobody told anybody because they didn't want, you know, all the things that happened when species are rediscovered and the feds move in.
Speaker B
And I thought that's an interesting new west topic.
Speaker B
And I wanted to rewrite that.
Speaker B
And originally the protagonist was going to be a sheriff.
Speaker B
And then I was writing it.
Speaker B
There's a journalist, which is what I was.
Speaker B
Then I realized the best protagonist would be a game warden because he would be involved in that issue.
Speaker B
Not thinking about a series, not thinking about anything.
Speaker B
Just it's a unique lifestyle.
Speaker B
And I don't have any regrets about it because game wardens are still fascinating to me.
Speaker B
I do ride alongs with them.
Speaker B
You know, they're, they're in every state, although they're all a little bit different.
Speaker B
You know, in Wyoming they're very much law enforcement.
Speaker B
In some states they're known as fish cops.
Speaker B
You know, so here they're very heavily armed.
Speaker B
You know, they tend to ride around with their, their Labradors in their trucks and rarely can get backup because it's so remote and.
Speaker B
And I just thought that's an interesting, interesting protagonist.
Speaker B
I didn't have a game warden in mind when I wrote Made Joe Pickett.
Speaker B
I was thinking more of an average guy I saw on the street.
Speaker B
But I've since met game wardens who could be Joe Pickett.
Speaker A
Well, isn't it interesting that you said an average guy and we usually use the phrase average Joe and Pickett play.
Speaker A
Yeah.
Speaker A
And so you got average Joe, you got picket fence, which is hometown.
Speaker A
You know, this family is the center of everything.
Speaker A
And so there's kind of a natural evolution there.
Speaker B
You know, I.
Speaker B
I never thought about the picket fence before.
Speaker B
I like that.
Speaker B
Actually.
Speaker B
I got Pickett.
Speaker B
The name Pickett.
Speaker B
I was involved in the Cheyenne Frontier Days rodeo.
Speaker B
I was a used to work shoot number two pulling shoot number two out.
Speaker B
And I did some research.
Speaker B
And the very first cowboy to ever win Cheyenne Frontier Days was a black cowboy named Bill Pickett.
Speaker B
So I just took his name.
Speaker A
Did you ever tell him that as you got down the road with the successful.
Speaker B
No, because that was in the 1890s.
Speaker A
Oh, oh, oh, yeah, sorry I missed that little bit.
Speaker A
You, you mentioned something about ride alongs.
Speaker A
There's two things you mentioned there that I really want to unpack a little bit.
Speaker A
One is ride alongs and I'm, I'm always fascinated by that.
Speaker A
You learn so much, don't you?
Speaker A
Doing it right?
Speaker B
I often, yes.
Speaker B
And I, I love doing it.
Speaker B
And, and often, you know, the game wardens I go with feel like they, they have to tell me a bunch of stories or really impress me in some way.
Speaker B
But I, what I always find more fascinating is just like throwaway things.
Speaker B
You know, they'll mention that they did some case or something and I'll dig into it and at the lifestyle too.
Speaker B
You know, things that they don't think are interesting to others.
Speaker B
I find interesting that, you know, they live in state owned homes and their, their whole families are involved in their jobs whether they want to be or not.
Speaker B
And just being remote, moving around, that kind of stuff I like to get, I like to get just thought about something.
Speaker A
What's interesting is kind of like growing up as, as a pk, I was, my dad was a preacher.
Speaker A
So we're moving around from town to town.
Speaker A
The churches are, the parsonage we lived in are church owned.
Speaker A
So it's never really your home.
Speaker B
Right.
Speaker A
And, and then you're constantly moving around.
Speaker A
That's an interesting parallel.
Speaker B
It's hard on families, you know, it's hard on wives.
Speaker A
Wait till you read my next book, which is a non fiction about growing up in that world.
Speaker A
But the other thing you said there and, and cj, this is what has captured my attention about you, having listened to you in different writers conferences is your passion for the craft.
Speaker A
And you said, hey, when I started out, I didn't think about a series, I didn't think about a book number two.
Speaker A
And I love that because what you were doing is you were coming at it.
Speaker A
Correct me if I'm wrong.
Speaker A
From an organic place about being in the moment, following your passion and going, hey listen, if this is going to be something, it will be and if not, it doesn't.
Speaker A
And look, 25 books in one series later and you're still cranking it.
Speaker B
That's very well put.
Speaker B
Yeah, I, I'm, you know, sometimes at conferences or I'll always meet somebody who's a fledgling author and they'll come up and say I have the first 10 books all plotted out in this thing and I'm going to start it really soon.
Speaker B
And, and I always tell them just write one book, put Everything in it don't hold nine books worth of stuff back.
Speaker B
Put everything in every book, and the reader, that'll.
Speaker B
The reader will tell that you did that.
Speaker B
You know, it's.
Speaker B
It's easy to tell.
Speaker B
So I never.
Speaker B
I never think ahead.
Speaker B
I never hold anything back.
Speaker B
I put everything into every book and then start over.
Speaker A
Love that.
Speaker A
And, and cj, this is perfect timing, I promise you.
Speaker A
Yesterday, I'm working on my next fiction, and I was sitting there thinking about, okay, this is.
Speaker A
This book, and this is about you.
Speaker A
But I want to make a point because you, you bring up a really good point.
Speaker A
And I'm like, well, I'll save this idea for that book, maybe this idea for that book.
Speaker A
And something inside of me just goes, dude, you may only get one chance.
Speaker A
And this, this is the story you want to tell, so shut up, sit down, and put all the juice in this one.
Speaker A
Squeeze.
Speaker B
Right.
Speaker B
Right.
Speaker B
I think.
Speaker B
And that's one of those tough things there are.
Speaker B
You know, I, I really feel bad for some authors who have a killer debut and then can't come up with book number two.
Speaker B
And that does happen.
Speaker B
I mean, we, we all have little classes of people that we went into the book world with, and I kind of track them now.
Speaker B
None of them are currently published authors anymore.
Speaker B
One guy ghostwrites.
Speaker B
But I don't know.
Speaker B
I don't know what to say about that other than, you know, you put all new stuff into every book and you hope and you cross your fingers, and I've been lucky enough that each book is outsold the last for 25 years.
Speaker B
But.
Speaker B
But it was never a plan.
Speaker B
It was a strategic.
Speaker B
I don't know how I would plan that if I, If I tried.
Speaker A
Let me just sit there and take a second to absorb that.
Speaker A
Every book has been more successful than the previous one.
Speaker B
Yeah, when it, when it's released as hardcover, sure, sure.
Speaker B
I mean, obviously the backlist grows over time, but that's different.
Speaker A
But that is no easy feat.
Speaker A
Now, I'm not.
Speaker A
I'm not pumping you up to try to, you know, blow.
Speaker A
Blow smoke up your skirt, but I, I say that because, again, I'm.
Speaker A
I'm reiterating the point for my listeners that follow the passion, follow the dream, and put all your heart into this one and let.
Speaker A
Let fate, whatever you want to call it, take care of the rest.
Speaker B
I agree completely.
Speaker B
I was just thinking, you know, don't chase the market.
Speaker B
Don't try to anticipate what re.
Speaker B
You know, what's hot right now.
Speaker B
I'm going to write that story, I've never done that.
Speaker B
If I thought that way, I would know better than to write a series about a Wyoming game warden.
Speaker B
You know, for God's sake, I come up with something better than that.
Speaker A
Yeah.
Speaker A
Well, folks, let's take a short break.
Speaker A
When we come back, I've got a question for CJ about somebody new showing up in Battle Mountains.
Speaker A
So it is CJ Box here on the Thriller Zone.
Speaker A
Stay with us and welcome back.
Speaker A
It's Dave temple here with C.J.
Speaker A
box, author of this little beauty, Battle Mountain, with the gorgeous hawk on the front.
Speaker A
Falcon eagle.
Speaker A
What species is that?
Speaker B
That's a peregrine falcon.
Speaker A
There you go.
Speaker B
The fastest animal in the world.
Speaker A
I read this somewhere.
Speaker A
And so that is indeed true.
Speaker B
Yeah, they can drop.
Speaker B
What they do is they'll go at high elevation and they'll spot their prey at an incredible distance.
Speaker B
They'll tuck their wings and they'll dive up to 220 miles an hour until they spread their wings at the end.
Speaker B
That's what you see on the front of the COVID and hit it.
Speaker A
Wow.
Speaker A
Yeah, the way they cut, they kind of land like a plane, have those talons come in, grab it, and then.
Speaker B
Off to the race or hit it in the air sometimes.
Speaker B
Which is amazing when you think about an animal doing that.
Speaker A
Yeah.
Speaker A
So I, before the break, I, I wanted to come back and talk about Susan Kaney.
Speaker A
She's a brand new character.
Speaker A
Tell us about her and her role here in Battle Mountain.
Speaker B
She, I, I love to have Joe Pickett, who's now 51, interact with new characters because I think it brings things out in Joe and, and the new characters.
Speaker B
And in this case, he's actually working with a young female game warden who's about the age of his daughters.
Speaker B
And it comes across several times in the book where he feels like she's talking to him like a, like daughter to a dumb old dad.
Speaker B
And he feels a little bit uncomfortable, you know, realizing that he's getting up in age and he's doing that same job.
Speaker B
But I think they have an interesting relationship and I like writing, you know, strong female characters like that.
Speaker B
And there, there's a few female game wardens that I've been on ride alongs with that are very impressive and wanted to include, I did it did include one in an earlier book and wanted to include a new one in this one.
Speaker A
Well, mission accomplished.
Speaker A
I, I believe I mentioned this last time we spoke.
Speaker A
It was about how your characters speak like real people and there's going to be somebody in the audience that Goes, well done, it, Dave.
Speaker A
But that's not always the case with the author.
Speaker A
Sometimes the language can be derivative or posed or stiff.
Speaker A
And the thing I always love about reading your characters is I feel like I've kind of.
Speaker A
I've come into a restaurant or a bar or around a fireplace, and I'm just sitting down, and I'm just joining in a gaggle of people sitting around talking about the end of their day.
Speaker B
Yeah, well, thank you.
Speaker B
I mean, that's one thing I read.
Speaker B
You probably know Elmore Leonard's 10 rules of writing, and, you know, number one is leave out the parts people skip.
Speaker B
And then he goes on to explain that it's natural for readers to just bypass huge blocks of prosecution and go to the first line of dialogue and have.
Speaker B
And probably haven't missed anything.
Speaker B
So I think it's very important to work, you know, that the dialogue is natural and advances the story, and there's not too much, look at me, I'm writing kind of passages.
Speaker A
Isn't that funny?
Speaker A
And you can spot it a mile away, can't you?
Speaker B
I can, yeah.
Speaker B
And it turns me off quite quickly.
Speaker B
And when I'm reading other books, you.
Speaker A
Know, James Patterson kicked off our new Season eight, which was a huge moment for me.
Speaker A
Excuse me.
Speaker A
Yeah, excuse me.
Speaker A
While I name drop cj.
Speaker B
Sure.
Speaker A
You are bigger, but, I mean, I'm just, you know, I'm not.
Speaker A
Yeah, but it was so funny talking, fun talking to him, because he was one of the guys that really lit this fire underneath me to feel like.
Speaker A
To make me feel like I could do this.
Speaker A
And one of my favorite things about him, and you just brought it up, is that mastery of dialogue.
Speaker A
And you.
Speaker A
You do find your eye just gravitating toward the quotation mark.
Speaker A
So I can get into the conversation, and I don't know what that is.
Speaker A
Cj.
Speaker A
Maybe it's that I.
Speaker A
I want to say to the writer, hey, just tell me I'm in the forest and I've got a gun in my hand, and we're looking for that guy.
Speaker A
You don't have to tell me how dense the forest is or what the caliber of the rifle is or a lot of that.
Speaker A
And some of that is important.
Speaker A
Don't.
Speaker A
Don't mishear that.
Speaker A
But I just love to jump into the conversation because it goes back to the reason that we're all storytellers anyway and how we started back in the caveman, sitting around just telling stories.
Speaker B
Right, right.
Speaker B
And it's.
Speaker B
It's also all about point of view.
Speaker B
When you have Multiple characters.
Speaker B
And you have good.
Speaker B
Good guys and bad guys.
Speaker B
And rather than the writer explaining, this is a really bad villain, it comes out in their dialogue and their actions, but a lot of times in their dialogue.
Speaker B
So, you know, it goes to motivation and point of view.
Speaker B
Is the is is how it's expressed.
Speaker A
Motivation and point of view.
Speaker A
It's funny.
Speaker A
Last night, my wife and I, we remember.
Speaker A
When did you ever see the series Ozark with Jason?
Speaker A
Statement.
Speaker A
Okay.
Speaker B
Yeah, I like that.
Speaker A
Spectacular.
Speaker A
So every once in a while, Tammy and I, while we're waiting on the next series to come along, or we're just kind of tired of things, we'll go back and find something we really, really like.
Speaker A
So we started Ozark, and we're now wrapping that first, well, the four Seasons.
Speaker A
And you just made a point that maybe think about this.
Speaker A
There's a bad guy who heads up the cartel, and nobody has to tell you, by the way, C.J.
Speaker A
that's a bad guy over there, and he's a mean guy and he's rough.
Speaker A
You don't have.
Speaker A
It's just the way he will say something or the way he will disregard someone in a conversation.
Speaker A
And I made this comment last night.
Speaker A
I said, notice the deftness with which the writer just insinuates and lets you, the viewer, reader experiencer, create that world of angst and animosity and evil in your own mind.
Speaker B
And the other part of that was, I think creating good, realist, realistic bad guys is understanding that they never think of themselves as bad guys.
Speaker B
They've got good reasons for what they do.
Speaker B
And, you know, they don't get up in the morning and say, I want to go out and kick the dog to start the day.
Speaker B
You know, they've got, you know, they're more likely to be arrested while cleaning out their gutter than shooting somebody.
Speaker B
And those kind of things, I think are important because it brings realism to it.
Speaker A
That is so hilarious.
Speaker A
I can just see a bad guy.
Speaker A
Maybe I'm up here cleaning the gutters.
Speaker A
Well, give me my gun.
Speaker A
Yeah.
Speaker B
Yeah.
Speaker A
Now, besides being a good escape, as all of your books are, do you have something I, I don't know if I asked you this last time.
Speaker A
Do you have something that you hope your list, your viewer, your reader will take away with each book is either it's a lesson or, or a principle, or is it just about a good ride?
Speaker B
No, it, I, I, it's about exploring both sides of a concept or an issue or a controversy without an agenda and letting the reader come down where they may but, you know, I mean, I, I follow the news.
Speaker B
I get, you know, ideas from really different, strange places and without getting too, no spoilers or anything, had a very interesting conversation a couple of years ago with an ex special operator who had done been all over the world, you know, been involved in all, all sorts of, of activities that we all know about.
Speaker B
But he was telling me how disaffected he and his fellow military guys were with our government and their leaders and how bitter they were about some of the ways things worked out.
Speaker B
They're still very patriotic, but, boy, do they hate their leaders.
Speaker B
And I found that pretty fascinating.
Speaker B
And so I worked that into this book about, you know, special operators, military, who basically hate the military industrial complex because they feel like they've been abandoned and that when people make errors at high levels, they're never held accountable, unlike the people on the ground.
Speaker A
I think there's a whole lot more of that than we would like to admit, don't you?
Speaker B
I do, I, and I think a lot of it is justified.
Speaker A
Yeah, I, yeah, I feel for a lot of our service people who have faced danger square in the face and not had quite the respect that I think they're due upon their return.
Speaker B
I think it's not from average people, it's from their leadership.
Speaker B
Yeah, yeah, most people, most people I know really honor the service of veterans.
Speaker B
I think where they, they feel let down is the, is the bureaucracy and the leadership.
Speaker A
Well, without getting too political or pointing too many fingers, there are a couple of real dumb asses that are in charge, so.
Speaker B
Sure, sure.
Speaker A
Speaking of news, now, you, you, you brought up something that I love.
Speaker A
And I always, I, I laugh and I cringe simultaneously when I hear people go, Mr.
Speaker A
Author, where do you get your ideas?
Speaker A
I'm like, well, where do you think?
Speaker A
Where do you get most of your ideas?
Speaker A
And so it always begs the question, not exactly straight at you, but do you find some of your best ideas come to you when you're least expecting it?
Speaker A
You're doing something completely different and this thing comes out of nowhere and you're like, I did not see that coming.
Speaker B
Not so much ideas, because I, I, most of my ideas come from.
Speaker B
Well, I guess it does.
Speaker B
I mean, conversations I overhear, you know, people who are dealing with different issues.
Speaker B
I read a lot of news, I follow a lot of things.
Speaker B
Those are where the big concepts come from.
Speaker B
But what I find is sometimes as I'm building the plot and I'm building the narrative, I can't sometimes figure out how to get from B to C.
Speaker B
In a.
Speaker B
In a way, in a smooth way.
Speaker B
And it always comes to me how to do that when I'm doing something like taking a shower or fishing, when I'm not actively thinking about that thing.
Speaker B
Then all of a sudden, boom.
Speaker B
Okay, got it.
Speaker B
So I think sometimes your mind just is working on these puzzles while you're not.
Speaker B
And I let that happen.
Speaker A
Well, if you want to dial into metaphysics and quantum entanglement, I will tell you that the common denominator in both of those places that you have found inspiration, both involve water.
Speaker A
So just think about that.
Speaker B
Interesting.
Speaker B
I never thought of that.
Speaker A
Hey, that.
Speaker B
Yeah, I learned something in this too.
Speaker B
That's.
Speaker B
That's interesting.
Speaker A
I'm here for you, cj.
Speaker B
We don't have.
Speaker B
We don't live in Wyoming.
Speaker B
We don't even have much water.
Speaker B
So maybe that's.
Speaker B
That's part of it too.
Speaker A
Okay, well, now I.
Speaker A
As we're talking about news, I often run.
Speaker A
My mind runs to showbiz news because I worked in showbiz for so long and I am such a fan of showbiz.
Speaker A
Do you find yourself.
Speaker A
Are you.
Speaker A
Are you heavily involved in the TV series from day to day?
Speaker A
I know we, last time we talked about it, you had some ancillary workings about it, but do you, do you get to put your toe in that room very often?
Speaker B
You know, it depend on which I.
Speaker B
There was two TV television shows based on my book Big sky, which ran three seasons and is now over, and Joe Pickett on Paramount plus, which ran two seasons and is now over.
Speaker B
So currently.
Speaker B
No, it was strange circumstance with both of those series.
Speaker B
They both took place during COVID where it was very difficult to visit the set.
Speaker B
And when I did, especially the Joe Pickett in Canada, they were so locked down and locked up and masked up.
Speaker B
It was just an odd experience.
Speaker B
But at the same time, I don't want to be involved on a day to day basis with those things.
Speaker B
You know, you've got the experience, you know, sitting in a tent with headphones listening to the actors rehearse the same thing over and over for five hours.
Speaker B
I.
Speaker B
I might as well just shoot myself in the head.
Speaker B
You know, I, I hate.
Speaker B
It's just the most boring thing.
Speaker B
So I look at it as.
Speaker B
My job is to produce, you know, provide the source material and then cash the check.
Speaker A
Yeah.
Speaker B
And not.
Speaker B
I love.
Speaker B
I like talking to them and, and talking to the producers and writers if they want to hear me.
Speaker B
Sometimes they don't.
Speaker A
Well, with a handful of shorts under my belt and then one feature film that I wrote and directed.
Speaker A
I, I can, I can echo that sentiment in that.
Speaker A
I mean, I'm thinking of a scene, any number of scenes where you'll spend nearly an entire day doing one setup in one scene.
Speaker A
And you're going to.
Speaker A
Because you're going to shoot that from five different angles.
Speaker A
And so it is, it is not the glamorous situation that everybody thinks it is.
Speaker B
No, it isn't.
Speaker B
Yeah, it's a lower budget or it can be really annoying to hear an actor who you created that character say to the director, my character would never say this.
Speaker B
And I'm thinking, I invented you, lady.
Speaker B
I could take you out.
Speaker A
You know, that is one of my favorite stories because I always want to say, oh, really?
Speaker A
Did you create this character?
Speaker A
And, and how do you know that the be me being the director?
Speaker A
I don't maybe hear a different frequency to that particular character's tone.
Speaker A
And yeah, I don't.
Speaker A
It's, it's a little bit of bs.
Speaker A
Well, from my completely random question department as we kind of ease on into our wrap up and, and this is.
Speaker A
You're going to say to me, dave, where did that come from?
Speaker A
But you're going to answer this for me because I knew I could.
Speaker A
But.
Speaker A
And everybody will know why.
Speaker A
It's right here on page 324.
Speaker A
Bishop placed his hat on his lap and Mary Beth noted that he didn't do it crown down, as Joe would have insisted upon.
Speaker A
And when I read that, I thought, I don't think I've ever asked anyone.
Speaker A
And I don't wear a cowboy hat.
Speaker A
I know you do.
Speaker A
I'm like, why does one put the crown down?
Speaker B
So it won't flatten the brim, which is shaped.
Speaker A
There you go.
Speaker B
Whenever you see somebody put it flat down on the table, it takes the shape out of it eventually and looks stupid.
Speaker A
See, I knew you'd have an answer.
Speaker A
And you're, you're always sporting a, a very handsome.
Speaker A
What's your favorite?
Speaker A
Is Stetson still the big player in that whole world?
Speaker B
It is a big player.
Speaker B
I, I now have my cat hats custom made at a place called Greeley Hat Works where they have a perfect, they have a perfect little model of my head so I can just order a hat and it fits perfectly.
Speaker A
Oh, my God.
Speaker A
Tell me how this works.
Speaker B
Okay, I think I'm gonna maybe mispronounce this, but.
Speaker B
In the turn of the last century, there was a weird cult belief, I think, called phrenology, where people would put their hands over somebody's Skull and head and like, tell them this is going to happen with you.
Speaker B
Here's what you're prone to do.
Speaker B
I can tell by the bumps and so on.
Speaker B
Well, they made these devices with all these little levers in them that they'd put on a head and lock it down and it would make a, it would be perfect replication of the skull.
Speaker B
Well, this Greeley Hat Works found some of those old devices and that's how they fit hats now.
Speaker B
So.
Speaker A
Well, I know from experience that if you've ever once had a pair of custom made shoes, you will say to yourself, once you start wearing that shoe, why did I ever buy any shoe off the rack again?
Speaker A
But a hat, I'd never thought about that.
Speaker A
But yeah, there's nothing like having that thing just fit perfectly so it didn't.
Speaker B
Blow off in the wind and et cetera.
Speaker A
And another question, since I'm drilling down on something innocuous.
Speaker A
Do you get to pick out the material and the lining and the, the band and any kind of accoutrement along the side?
Speaker B
Yes, all of those things.
Speaker B
The, the hats, that's real.
Speaker B
The, the most expensive hats are the ones that are 100% pure beaver felt.
Speaker B
And they are expensive, they're several thousand dollars, but they never wear out.
Speaker B
They last forever.
Speaker B
And the hat patter will reshape them once you've destroyed them.
Speaker B
And they look like new.
Speaker B
So it's worth it to spend the money.
Speaker A
Okay, last question.
Speaker A
How many, how many hats do you have?
Speaker B
Three.
Speaker B
I only have three.
Speaker A
Oh, so you're no Imelda Marcus of.
Speaker B
But they all fit.
Speaker B
So why do I need more?
Speaker A
Why do you need more?
Speaker A
It's so, Isn't that funny?
Speaker A
My wife and I are talking about athletic wear, so forth and, and, and people who buy, you know, 10 colors and this.
Speaker A
I'm like, or different brands.
Speaker A
And I'm like, just, why don't you find one that works and just buy three of them and be done with it.
Speaker A
That's going to wear out.
Speaker B
Yep.
Speaker A
All right.
Speaker A
Marking 25 books, as we said at the beginning of the show, is no small feat.
Speaker A
Do you see yourself.
Speaker A
And I know this is a, an odd question.
Speaker A
Do you see another 25 in your future?
Speaker A
I mean, you're only 39, so you probably 20.
Speaker A
You've got the time.
Speaker B
Well, I, I'm not 39, but I, you know, I, I don't think of an end game yet.
Speaker B
It's like say, go from book to book.
Speaker B
I'm not thinking of.
Speaker B
I've got to complete this long Narrative arc.
Speaker B
And then Joe Pickett will fight Moriarty on Rickenback Falls, and that'll be the end of the character.
Speaker B
I just go from book to book.
Speaker B
And since he ages and everyone else does in that, in real time, there's going to be a point where it doesn't make any sense to continue.
Speaker B
And I think at that point I will probably feel the same way about writing those books.
Speaker B
But that's in the future.
Speaker B
I'm not worried about that.
Speaker A
Good for you.
Speaker A
What does my sister and I always say?
Speaker A
Start where you stand.
Speaker A
Start where you stand.
Speaker A
Well, folks, as we wrap, I do have to ask, you know, everyone's sitting there going, are you going to ask C.J.
Speaker A
your closing question?
Speaker A
I'm like, of course I am.
Speaker A
Best writing advice, cj, you gave me a doozy last time you're on the show.
Speaker A
It may have changed.
Speaker A
It may have shifted a bit.
Speaker A
What would you say to my listeners who are going, man, I want to get that first novel.
Speaker B
Did I say read widely?
Speaker B
Was that my, my, I, I can't.
Speaker B
I, I can't.
Speaker B
That has not changed, you know, and again, for the same reasons.
Speaker B
And that is, I think too many authors get so locked into the voice in their own head that they don't realize what else is out there.
Speaker B
And that, you know, every good book and every successful book is a manual on how to write a good book.
Speaker B
If you think of it that way, whether it's your genre or not, it's worth reading.
Speaker B
And I think you get more out of deconstructing a really well done book than you would going for five years to, you know, a college course in creative writing.
Speaker A
Yeah, agreed.
Speaker A
You know, and it's funny, interesting little thing you, you bring up a great point that I often do is I will.
Speaker A
I tend to get locked into people.
Speaker A
Like, if once I discovered you, I'm like, well, now I'm going to be reading everything CJ writes, for crying out loud.
Speaker B
Great.
Speaker A
Yeah, of course.
Speaker A
Keep those hats around.
Speaker A
I think about that with Don Winslow.
Speaker A
I think about that with Meg Gardner.
Speaker A
I think about that with a number of people, Christopher Wright and so forth.
Speaker A
The guys who really turn my head and keep me engaged, every page, turning it.
Speaker A
I want to read more of them.
Speaker A
But here's something I've started doing lately is I'll go find somebody that's completely over here.
Speaker A
Maybe, maybe we'll call it Space Cowboys or Sci Fi or something.
Speaker A
I'll read it just to go, just to shift my thinking and go, okay, have you considered this?
Speaker A
And just maybe it's just one little thing that you can go, I can integrate that into my story.
Speaker B
That's right.
Speaker B
That's right.
Speaker B
And you know that I've, I've heard people say they don't like to read strong writers while they're writing because they'll adopt that, you know, too much of it will leak over.
Speaker B
And I think, why in the hell don't you want it to leak over if it's good, you know?
Speaker A
Yeah, we're not talking about stealing lines or stealing, you know, rhythm and cadence or so forth, but stealing or borrowing.
Speaker A
I mean, what, what's the old axiom?
Speaker A
There's, you know, there's nothing new under the sun.
Speaker A
We're all stealing from one another.
Speaker A
And I'm gonna, like, for instance, you, you're a great example of that.
Speaker A
I call it Down Home Warm.
Speaker A
I'm not saying all warm and fuzzy like there's no danger in your stories.
Speaker A
I'm not saying that.
Speaker A
But there's an over arching overarching of humanity.
Speaker A
That's the word, humanity.
Speaker A
And good.
Speaker A
Yeah, humanity treating your fellow man the best you can.
Speaker A
I saw it in your TV series, the way his Joe's ethic was.
Speaker A
Like, I know you want to think you can do that, but you know, there's a right way and a wrong way to do it and you're doing the wrong way.
Speaker A
And I always, I'm like, we need more of that these days.
Speaker B
I think so too.
Speaker B
I, I, and, and I also think in, in this particular genre, that kind of attitude is almost countercultural in some ways, almost subversive.
Speaker B
To have kind of like a, you know, an old time kind of guy who tries to do the right thing, you know, like, what kind of weirdo does that?
Speaker B
But I think readers like it and I like writing characters like that.
Speaker A
Yeah.
Speaker A
Well, my hat's off to you.
Speaker B
Thank you.
Speaker A
Well, folks.
Speaker A
Yeah, folks, if you want to learn more, go to cjbox.net CJ, as always, you are a pleasure to spend time with and I thank you for your time.
Speaker B
Likewise.
Speaker B
Thank you so much.
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