From Hong Kong to Hollywood: Author DJ Williams' Story

The Thriller Zone with David Temple (00:04.718)
Welcome to the 197th episode of the Thriller Zone. I'm your host David Temple and today my guest is rising star DJ Williams, author of the Chase Hardiman series. Today, DJ and I sit down for a face -to -face conversation filmed live in the Temple Treehouse here in San Diego. Is it a real treehouse? No, but then again, it's not actually life. What I can tell you is we are going to drill deep into his new thriller, King of the Night, but we're also going beyond the page into a deeper conversation about the world of publishing, both traditionally and independently, which is a two -sided sword DJ has swung a number of times. So let's get into our second episode here in our all new and brightly polished season seven. Now with a new car smell, please welcome DJ Williams to the Thriller Zone.

DJ Williams is in the house. you. Good to be here, Cocktails will be served here shortly. The one of the reasons I wanted to sit down and wing a lot of it with you is because you have had such a fascinating background. I you're not just a working corporate America as an accountant or nothing wrong with accountants. And, you know, I wanted to pick up writing or something. No.

We're talking about you were born and raised in Hong Kong. let's just start there. How does that happen? Dad in the military? Parents were missionaries. And so they live there 20 years. was born and raised. I was 15. And I loved it. I love living over there. You know, all my friends from grade school, we're still a lot of us are still connected through social media and stuff. So that's been kind of the fun part is

When you grow up over there, you think this is normal. But when we came back to the States, you start realizing that was not a normal experience, which is very cool. I mean, I remember kind of a funny story is in Hong Kong, the last couple of years we were there, I went to an American school, getting me ready to come back to the States. We get back to the States, my parents...

The Thriller Zone with David Temple (02:17.646)
enroll me in one of the roughest high schools in Los Angeles at the time. I went from Hong Kong, like private school, all of a sudden I'm in like, you the first day of school, there's like fights breaking out everywhere. What is happening? But then I won the lottery because each class I went to, they start handing out the textbooks and everything. And I'm looking at it, I come home, my parents like, well, how was your first day of school? And I'm like, it was great.

well, that's good. Why? Why was it? Every class they gave me, I already took in Hong Kong. So I literally, my entire high school experience here in the States, I never studied. I took all the same classes and word got out to the teachers, right? Word got out to the teachers and my senior year, me and my best friend, we were getting recruited to play basketball. The teachers knew this.

So they just all signed me a hall pass to the gym. I went to one class, I think it was government, that was it. But my whole senior year, I played basketball all day, graduated, you know, the whole thing. And so it was a blessing in that way. And then, you know, I was traveling since I was four years old. That was just normal to jump on a plane and fly to Japan, Korea, Philippines. I've been to the Philippines a lot.

But yeah, it was a fun, fun experience. How many languages do you know? English, Cantonese, very rusty. If I'm in a setting where people are speaking Cantonese, I can understand a lot more than I can speak. But when we went back to visit, it's been years ago, we went back to visit some friends and I was there for two weeks. At the end of those two weeks, I could sit down and just start talking to people. Wow.

came back and then I took a year of Spanish when I was in Hong Kong. Yeah. And I thought I'll never use this. Why am I even in this class? Right. And then I moved to Los Angeles and I'm like, I'm such an idiot. I should have paid attention. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. So, yeah. and now besides writing, Hey, by the way, did I, did I hold up this beautiful little thing? yes. Thank you. Yep. King of the night. We're going to talk about this, but I'm just so fascinated. want to make sure I drill into the back of some

The Thriller Zone with David Temple (04:42.338)
Backstory on you. Yeah, sure. I got a couple of notes Some of these were notes that I was gonna share with you as though as Though you were to say to me. Hey David, have you got any advice then I would tell you Yeah, but if you didn't ask me I would never tell you I put the word Wow hair at the end of this because this Crescendo finale was so good.

I don't want to start bathing you in accolades. go ahead. Go ahead. can take it. Well, know, Ryan Steck and I were talking about you the other day. gave you a blurb here, a sensational thriller. And I was I said, and I'm talking to him like I'm not talking, you know, like you're not here. Like, dude, what do think about this guy?

great guy, like, I know right, salt of the earth, just kind, considerate, professional. He goes, yeah, I'll do anything for him. Like, yeah, me too. And I don't know where that comes from. I think you have a kindness about you and there's a lot to be said for kindness. Then when people are kind to me, I'll do anything for you. I'll do backflips for you. Then on top of that, folks, the dude can write.

man, thanks. I liked the auctioneer. What I liked about the auctioneer was it was original. Who writes about an auctioneer? Right? Ever. Nobody. Ever. And then turns it into a thriller. And I'm like, okay. Big check mark for originality. But then King of the Night, and I'm gonna say this and I mean this with everything in my heart. And if you say to me, I'm just gonna say it.

This needs to be discovered by, because you're self -published, right? Yep. Andy. I'm an Andy. Okay. Yep. And I, I, I praise you. I, I high -five you. I high -five you. I'll take it. On Andy. However, and I know this is probably going to be nearly impossible because I've just recently run into this. This is as good as anybody out there doing it at a different level. Like,

The Thriller Zone with David Temple (07:00.085)
You and I were talking before we went on about the Jack Carrs and the Vince Flins and the Ludlums and the Jason, the Brian Freemans and so forth. These guys who have really been spending some time with it, Le Carre. But I'm reading this and I'm going, there's little hints of Le Carre here. There's, I like Chase himself. He feels like,

He reminds me of kind of like Jason Bourne so that Jason Bourne not a superhero. just happens to be an average guy who is bent somewhere and he's trying to figure out how he got bent. He also has these kind of out of the ordinary powers of fighting that he is not exactly sure how he got it. Of course, that's a little bit different with Chase, but just to cut to the chase.

This is mainstream, top -notch New York Times thriller at its best. Can I quote you on that? Well, I gave you a quote. you did. You did. It's an 11. On a 1 to 10, it's 11. And you know what? It is. And I often do this. Tammy and I, my wife and I, we'll sit around. We watch a lot of content. we will.

She'll see books come in because there there's probably five books floating every week and she'll like, who's that? Who's that? What do you think about that? And she knows if she sees me off in the corner reading, you've got my attention because you can't do this volume of reading and podcasting and really sit down and read cover to cover every single book. Right. You've got to kind of skip through a little bit. it's and at 4 44, by the way, I put up

I did this. I did a great big highlighted 444 and I'm like, and I'm thinking to myself DJ really? my gosh. 444. only because I've been watching the trends of the books and they're getting smaller and smaller. They're getting around 3 44 and I've come across a couple of two eighties lately. Anyway, I don't want to divert the attention, but the thing is, I mean, this could almost be

The Thriller Zone with David Temple (09:18.475)
So she and I are talking about content. She goes, what is, what is King of the Night? And I said, well, it's a blockbuster thriller by itself or it's a TV series. really, really, I mean, Chase Hardeman should be a TV series because there's so much going on in here. You got so many locations, so many cities, so many people, so many characters, which accolades for that.

And I'm going to stop here in a second. dude, and I want to stop there and roll into your access to Hollywood because you live in Hollywood. You work for Hollywood. Tell me that somewhere somebody is looking at this going. Yeah, you know, the interesting thing about Hollywood, we're shopping the Chase Hardeman series and we're chopped. We're shopping my young adult series called Beacon Hill.

And it's a long process and many conversations, you know, you might go down one rabbit trail and you think something's going to happen and then that shifts directions or, you know, people are in and out of different studios so often that you're constantly the one banging the drum saying, remember this, remember the series. So hopefully we, we sent the auctioneer out when it came out.

I ended up signing a book deal which slowed King of the Night from coming out by a couple of years. I'm still, I'm an indie, I'm traditionally published in one series, I'm indie on the Hardiman series. You know, there's a part of me, I love being indie because throughout my career in entertainment, you know, I built and ran two record companies. I was the GM of a startup entertainment company. I started my own production company which has been up and running almost

that will all 18 years and a few months. And there's something about it for me is I love that, okay, grassroots, we're going for it. And all the marketing, all the packaging, like we do all that in -house. And I love that part of the process as much as the writing side. So, but yeah. And then, I write the series exactly what you were talking about.

The Thriller Zone with David Temple (11:42.347)
When I wrote the auctioneer, I looked at that as season one. good. Okay. Hardeman deal. And so King of the Night, that would be season two. yeah. One of the things that I shared a couple of days ago talking with another interview was they were asking me, how much do you plot? How much do you outline? And, you know, I know authors will say, I don't outline at all. You know, and everyone's like, we don't believe you. You have to outline. Right. And

I am wired that way where I know where it begins, I know where it ends. So when I started writing King of the Night, I knew where it was going to start. I knew that very last page. I knew what was going to happen there. I had no idea what was in between. And, you know, I felt like I'm more of a, I guess what you call more of like a binge writer. So if I get on the story that I am on it until I run out of gas, then I'll set it down. So I may not write every day like

you know, traditional publishers or authors might. So when you say binge until you run out of gas, do you mean I'll sit down and crank as many hours in a day that I can for as many days as I can? Or you say, OK, because you're working several jobs, so to speak. you say I'm going to take Monday, Tuesday, Wednesday, I'm just going to crank until I tap out? If I if I get on a roll, I'll block out days at a time because I know like, OK, the.

Creativity is flowing, the story's flowing. If I shut it down and come back to it in a week, I'm going to lose all the momentum I have going right now. And so, the Young Adult series, but two, I had a deadline and I was behind on the deadline. So I went away for five days, locked myself in a hotel room and I wrote like,

40 % of that book. And it was, it was cranking. was stopping, you know, I stayed at a place where the restaurants were all there, you know, so literally it was like, get up in the morning. I'm right until lunch, go eat, come back right all afternoon, break for dinner right till midnight. Because that story was, I had mapped that story out in my mind. And I'm like, I have to get it on paper. And so even with

The Thriller Zone with David Temple (14:06.293)
the Hardiman series, book three, I already know what book three is. So I'm itching, I'm writing another book right now, but I'm itching because I'm like, I know what it is, I just have to get going, you know? But I don't outline, I reverse outline, I guess, especially with the series, when the book's done, completely finished, edits are done, the whole deal.

I'll spend a day, I'll go back, I'll put a spreadsheet together with what happens in every chapter of the book, but it's after the book's finished. So then that way, when I get to the, like the third book in the series, I have two spreadsheets for book one and book two, and I can just go back and be like, yep, that happened here. That'll tie in with what we're doing. But when I'm writing, I'm not outlining at all. I'm just like, just go.

That is so fascinating to me. And you know, I've dabbled in both worlds doing the, you know, Chris Hart, Chris, Hottie and I are always joking about, who's, who's doing the. Pants or plotter conversation. I, I've gone both ways. I'm kind of like with you, I want an idea. I know where I'm going to start. got a pretty good idea where I'm going to end, but

I want to go along for the ride in the middle until that point that I gas out and then I go, okay, take a break, come back to it. But I'm with you. I like to do the matter of fact, I'm heading out to the mountains back home in the Blue Ridge next month to do a writing retreat with my sister. We used to do this a couple of times and we will start at 6 a right till noon.

Right till six, have dinner, right till nine. that's awesome. And there is a lot of freedom in that because you're completely on point. Your mind is sharp, you're rocking it. And I'm with you. You set something aside for too long. You lose the momentum. You lose, I mean, the good ideas are going to stay in your mind, you know? But you lose the riding momentum of chasing the

The Thriller Zone with David Temple (16:27.059)
story down. And I think that, you know, that that makes a big difference. You know, the other piece of it for me is I want to get that first draft on the page. Yeah, because you can fix anything right once it's written. Right. You know, and there's a whole storyline in King of the Night. President Bouchard is the U .S. president in this series. And there is a whole storyline with him that didn't exist in the first draft. And once I got to the end, I'm like,

we got to drop that in. it's, it's the president is struggling with whether to run for a second term and for various reasons. And then, you you see what's happening now. And I'm like, well, I'm sure glad I put that in, but I wouldn't have thought of that if I was still trying to, anytime I've outlined all, know, I tried this a few times. I'll outline, takes me a month outline the whole thing. I'm like, all right, this is exactly what I'm going to do. I'm going to stick to it. Yeah.

Day one, you sit down, like, have now blown up the outline and wasted a month of my life. You know, so I'm like, why even, why fight it? Just surrender to, this is the way it works for me and this is what I'm gonna do. You know what I mean? I do know what you mean. By the way, your show's gonna drop on, this is dropping on the 16th, one week later.

Lee Goldberg is going to join me and I got to do Lee Goldberg is probably there's a lot of things you guys share in common. You both can flat out write. He's the most gracious, giving, kindest guy at his level that I have yet to meet. There's something about him. It's like.

And I'm just, I'm just drilling down talking off cup because I'm like, he's hit, he's a baller. I mean, he's balling. Well, yeah, totally. And he balls, he's balling two, two books a year and he's working on three possibly. And here's my point on Monday's show a week from today.

The Thriller Zone with David Temple (18:45.697)
There's a master class in there if you want to know how to hit it. I was so excited with this episode, not taking away from you, because you're saying a lot of similar things that he's saying. And you got to watch this because he just has a master class. And he has an insight of to both what we're talking about, traditional and indie.

And he has pros and cons on both sides. And it's just, I love talking to guys like you and like him who know the business, who are not afraid to dip their toe in the Indy pool and try traditional too, because you had a story about a, agent who didn't quite pull through like you had hoped. And, you know, we're all just trying to make it happen in the, as the competition continues to increase.

And the struggle to hit the eyeballs increases and our attention spans decreasing. And the plethora of information out there, it's just getting tougher and tougher. Yeah. I mean, I've I'm traditionally published on the young adults, right? As I'm indie published on the Hardiman series. And one of the things I've experienced, and this may not be true for all authors, but one thing I've experienced is

For the author, it's the same amount of work. You still have to write the book. You still have to go through all the edits. You still have to market the book. so while I've had a good experience overall, I have seen, and maybe I'm just wired this way because of, I think I'm definitely entrepreneurial in different aspects of.

of my life. So I look at the books kind of as the same way where I'm comfortable saying, okay, we'll design the cover. We'll put a marketing plan together. We'll hit social media. We'll put the trailers. We'll do all that. you know, having control over that, there's something I really like. One thing we did early on, we targeted Barnes and Noble.

The Thriller Zone with David Temple (21:03.341)
So we built our own database of all the customer relation managers in the United States. So if we want to reach out to Barnes and Noble, we do it directly. We don't even have to run it to the publisher. did a 30, I think I did 30 dates with them last year for the books, you know? And so there are ways now where it didn't used to be this way. There are ways where you can be a hybrid, you know, I'm definitely open to traditionally publishing.

I'm also comfortable indie publishing. Yeah. And still it's just for me, it's the same amount of commitment. Well, and I think agents will tell you the same thing. Now let's go back 20, 30, 40 years, maybe 50 years, and maybe not even that far, but I'm talking to people agents cause we've had Gina Panettieri was on here. She gave us great insights. but some of them will say,

The days of you signing a contract and then me, the agent doing all the work, those are gone. The agents today are going, no, no, no. no, you'll, you'll pretty much do everything. I'm negotiating the contract DJ. I'm over here negotiating your contract, but you're going to do everything. And the sooner you get a hold of that, because it's amazing how many people I've talked to David, here's the thing. I just really enjoy writing.

I don't want to do social media. I don't want to do the marketing. really? Well, good on you. It take you see how that works out for you. Yeah, I think the the way here's how I look at it, because I'm you know, no one believes me, but I'm very much an introvert. And I've worked most of my career behind the scenes and even writing. It's a little bit behind the scenes because it's all about the story, the characters, not so much about the author, you know. But the way I look at it is if you're going to spend a year, year and a half of your life

writing a story that you love and you're passionate about and their characters that you want to dive deeper into, then if you're going to put that out into the world, you should be willing to do anything and everything to let people know that it exists. I like that. And, you know, we talked off camera about kind of my literary agent side of all this. And so right now,

The Thriller Zone with David Temple (23:33.717)
my manager, a TV and film agent represents me on the publishing side. So I think even that has changed. Even some authors, they'll just have an attorney, right? You know, because it comes down really to building the right relationships with people, developing those relationships and bringing fresh ideas that are not the same, the same old thing. You know, like with chase, you were mentioning earlier, you know, chase,

is from an auctioneer family, but he's also, you know, on the ground in the middle East, taking out the bad guys. And where that idea came from was one of my best friends was one of the greatest auctioneers of all time in the car world. I figured I had to be. So for years, you know, him and I would be together. He would tell me stories where I'm literally like this, this

is unbelievable, know, like so unbelievable, it should be in a novel, right? And so I just started thinking, I'm like, what if I took his life, his experience and mixed in a little Jason Bourne, Jack Reacher, James Bond. So you have the down and dirty gritty part of the story, but then you have this, you know, upper echelon of the elite and how Chase and his

buddy Dax, how they navigate in both these worlds as, you know, as naturally as they do. thought that could be really fun, you know? So when it came out, my buddy was the first to read it. Cause I'm like, dude, this chase is based, you know, you're like the spark of inspiration. He's reading is just like, I can't believe I'm James Bond. This is like unbelievable. cool. Yeah. So it was cool.

I'm gonna take a short break to say hello to our new sponsor, who happens to be DJ. Yes! And when we come back, we're gonna talk more about Chase Hardeman series. And I got a couple of questions that are up my sleeve that you're gonna wanna hang around for. So DJ Williams is my guest. It's the Thriller Zone, stay with us.

The Thriller Zone with David Temple (25:53.249)
Yeah and how about that commercial? What a product. What a product. King of the night. Folks, I'm talking just amongst ourselves for a second. Anytime in the show we go to say something and it gets a little bit too much too revealing just say dude please cut that out and look right at the camera and say cut it out. Okay. That way I won't get foobarred. That may or may not happen. Everyone tune in and see.

Well, here's a couple of things. Ryan Steck and Albert Taggart, as I mentioned, we are big fans of yours. Ryan Steck, besides being the real book spy, has a lot of inside scoop. I happen to have a lot of inside scoop because after three years, authors trust me. I have wanted desperately DJ to have a series or a section of the show called Overtime.

Yeah. Thrillers on overtime. that for those who, cause most people are digesting about 15, 20 minutes of the show. If you're really liking it, you might go 30, which is why the show is not kind of going to 30 minutes instead of an hour. there are so many things that I learned and that I'm told after the microphones are off.

50 % of that is really juicy shit that I really, really like learning, which I cannot talk about. And 50 % of it is just great insights that I learned that I'm like, dude, why didn't we talk about during the show? Well, that's kind of my secret sauce that I don't want to reveal. Or, well, here's the person who kind of taught me that. Or, here's something I'm working on, but I really can't talk about it. So what does that mean? Will there be an overtime? Maybe.

but you, what were we talking when we were in a commercial break and you said, and I said, have insight scoop on that. Kyle Mills. Okay. Kyle Mills. Okay. Going that go on the route he's gone. So he is a, with a group called, I can't remember. It was a couple of people who were in big traditional publishing houses. They all came together and said, we want to do it differently. And it feels like, and I don't know enough to speak intelligently about it, but it feels like.

The Thriller Zone with David Temple (28:12.023)
kind of a hybrid between the two because let's face it, there's gotta be a new way or some new ways because everything is changing. Hey, taxi drivers had a great little living, but all of a sudden Uber comes along and they're like, we're out of business now. So there's a title ships. Well, you're seeing to me like what Kyle Mills is doing, least what I've read about it. I love, I love that idea. Yeah. You know,

When I think of the music business, there was a shift where it was artists, record label, then it became joint ventures together. If you look at what's happening, even in Hollywood on the streaming and even, you know, the, the motion picture side is you have a lot more, let's use Kevin Hart as an example. Okay. You know, he has built a massive production company by now having skin in the game rather than just being paid as talent.

Right. And I think I think that shift is already, you you look at the rock, you look at Kevin Hart, you look at Krasinski, know, yeah. And Emily Blunt like Marky Mark. Yeah. I mean, Wahlberg. Yeah. He's selling everything. mean, there's nothing he's not selling. Exactly. So but I love that part of it where it's like, let's really partner, let's really partner together and bring everything we have to the table.

I'm the underdog climbing up the mountain of the publishing world, you know? But what I could see is more of that happening over time where it's like, want to sign a deal with an author? It's more of a joint venture than it is, we're going to pay you to write this book. And then we have two lines of marketing that we hope you'll do, know, interviews and whatever else.

It's going to be a lot more all encompassing. You know, I could definitely see that. so many things to unpack there. Hart, Kevin Hart, he's, he comes on the scene as a comedian. He catches on, then he catches fire. Then he doubles down and he says, I'm putting my, like you said, skin in the game. Is he part of the groups that are opening, production houses out in Vegas or Nevada? No, think Nevada, at least what I know.

The Thriller Zone with David Temple (30:37.067)
or what I've heard it's, it's Wahlberg and Mel Gibson. That's it. Yes. Yeah. They're all over the press right now. And this is what I think is genius. And De Niro has the same thinking in silver cup in New York or in that arena in that area. I'm not sure it's actually silver cup. I don't want to misspeak, but these guys have built up enough cache and cash a to say,

I'm going to put my money where my mouth is and do what I want to do and not be ruled by the pencil pushers and the accountants that often rule. Well, look at Kevin Costner with Horizon. Right. You know, that's all his money, right? A lot, a big chunk of it. I don't think all of it. I think enough to get the first two parts done, you know, and, there's something about that. You know, maybe you have to be wired a certain way. Cause I've definitely talked with plenty of

author friends that are not wired for, okay, jump in with both feet and we're going to do everything. We're going to do marketing. We're going do all that. You know, they just want to write the story. And if it finds an audience, that's good with them. But I think if you're looking at building out something that's going to last, I think you have to have skin in the game. know, I could not agree more. And I think

for so many reasons, these guys have already made their money. Like I'm thinking about Kevin Costner. I saw this interview, I think it was CBS, and he was talking about this. And I thought, you've already made millions. Now, unless you just want to live a superlatively extravagant life, then what better way to test your passion

than to put your cash on the line. And I think he did a similar thing. I want to say with that Waterworld or Postman or was that? It might've been Waterworld. I know Dances with Wolves for sure. He took a massive risk. The massive risk ended up working out for him handsomely. Yeah, totally. This is what ran through my mind when I was hearing Koster speak. If you have an idea that you really love and you're super passionate about it,

The Thriller Zone with David Temple (33:00.385)
and you're willing to roll the dice and you can afford to lose the money without hurting your family or your future, then why not? Yeah. Yeah. I think that's part of being a creative, you know, I, I've met with, some investors years ago and we were talking just about kind of the entertainment space, you know, and there is no formula really.

So you are, it's all about passion, the creativity, the storytelling. And then, you you roll the dice and see, will it find a home? You know, when I sat down, this was 2013, I was, actually before 2013, I found myself in Africa filming a documentary.

And, know, I grew up in Hong Kong, moved to LA. I'm a city boy. Concrete is my friend, you know, right. And sand. I like sand. Yeah. but I'm in Africa and we got done with this three week shoot and we were going to shoot some B roll, on the Zambezi river. my buddy's like, all right, be ready tomorrow. We're going to go. I show up at the airport. It's a four seater Cessna. And so right away I'm like, okay, this is not going to be your normal three day.

getaway, right? Right. Down this plane, we fly into the heart of Africa. I'm looking out the window. There's giraffes, there's zebras, there's impalas, you the whole thing. I'm like, this is nuts. So we got our headphones on. like, Hey, where are we going to land? You know, like I'm the, I'm the stupid, you know, city boy going, where's the runway? Right. The guy goes that dirt road down there. That's where we're landing. And I'm like, what? So we land there.

We hike into where we're going to stay four tents on the Zambezi River. And so my buddy tells me, Hey, if you're, if you're scared, you can share a tent with me. my ego kicks in. I'm like, no, I want my own tent. You know, 2 30 in the morning, it's pitch black. I hear animals roaming around outside. I have my little lantern on cause there's no, no electricity, no cell service. I have my lantern on. I'm looking around, you know,

The Thriller Zone with David Temple (35:24.365)
And I'm like, I am the stupidest guy on the planet. I should have stayed in the tent with him. Cause then there's two to one odds I'm going to get out of there. Okay. Something happens next morning. He comes out, the sun comes up. He comes over. He's like, Hey, I noticed it two 30 in the morning. You had your lamp on. I'm like, yeah, I'm such an idiot. I should have stayed with you. Well, we go out that day and we're shooting this B roll and we get about 50 feet from an elephant.

full tusks, the whole thing, right? And we're shooting and the guide who was driving us, he says, I can get us closer. And I'm like, no, man, I'm good. I'm good. I got a zoom. I can just zoom in. It's like, no, no, I think we'll get closer. We'll get a better shot. Well, we get too close to this elephant. Next thing I know, big trumpet sound, the ears are out. Elephant is full on charging the Land Rover.

We are flying backwards, David, and I am filming because I'm thinking, if I'm going to die, everyone's going to know how this whole thing went down, right? My last days, last seconds on earth, right? Well, he slams on the brakes and stands up and starts waving at the elephant. And I'm like, this is the dumbest thing I've ever seen. The elephant stops on a dime about this far, and we are just sitting there.

dust everywhere. The camera's still rolling because I'm like, I'm still alive. I'm just so glad about that. I'm still rolling. We sit there for like five minutes. No one moves. Elephant didn't move. None of us moved. And we waited. And finally, the elephant goes behind the tree. We go back to camp. And the other local guides that were there, we show them the footage. And you ever hear people have that nervous laugh? Like, yeah.

You almost die. Yeah. Basically. Yeah. Yeah. And so that night I'm standing on the Zambezi river and I'm watching there's hippos diving in the water. mean, it's just crazy. And I'm standing there and I'm like, you know what? One day I'm going to write about this place. And I had never even thought about writing novels up to that point. Wow. And I thought one day, because part of what we were filming, you know, we were definitely in.

The Thriller Zone with David Temple (37:47.927)
parts of Africa where there was trafficking and all kinds of stuff happening. And I thought, I'm going to write about this place. I'm not going to tell anybody until I do it. Well, I come home, you know, and life takes over. We're back in production on projects and everything. I put it on the back burner and then I decided I'm going to do it. I'm going to go for it. You know, I had no agent, no idea what I was doing. And I wrote a, I wrote a book called The Disillusion.

And I sent it to a friend of mine at the time. She was one of the co -executive producers on law and order, SVU, criminal minds, CSI. So I thought she's the best person I can send it to to get honest feedback. And I told her, said, hey, listen, if this is really bad, the only people that are going to know it exists are you and me. Right. And so she's like, got it. Right. So four days later, she hits me back as any good creative. She had all kinds of notes, you know,

but she's like, you need to chase this down. She's like, there is something here. And so I spent like six months going through her notes, dialing it in. put the disillusioned out as an indie and through a chain of events, Barnes and Noble finds out. And I did like a 10 city tour with them as a total indie author. And then I was hooked. I was hooked through the whole process. The storytelling.

the packaging, the branding, the marketing, you know, getting to meet readers, like that whole thing. I'm like, I'm like, I'm going to I'm going to keep going, you know, and then wrote a couple other books. And when the auction, when I wrote the auctioneer, you know, this is for all the indie authors out there, really. That was the one that we strategize about six months out, created an Amazon strategy. And when that book came out, it ended up on

three of Amazon's top 20 lists for like six weeks. Wow. So I'm there with like Baldacci and Patterson and Christian. I'm like, I have no business being in this group. How did this happen? You know? Yeah. But as an Indy, and then that's what got the attention of publishers and agents and, all that. But if I had not, if I had not listened to that thing in my gut on the Zambezi river,

The Thriller Zone with David Temple (40:15.821)
I never would have written the first story. If I had not said, know what, if no one else believes in this, but me, I'm going to put it out and see what happens. And then Barnes and Noble comes along, which, you know, like I said, we did 30 dates with them last year. We sold out every signing except for one, which was on Easter weekend. And I said, I can't compete with Easter. I can't do it. every other store we sold out.

when I was on the road. And so if I hadn't have taken that step, even as an indie, you know, and now, you know, I'm traditionally published, but I'm, I still see myself as the underdog guy that I will indie publish if I need to. I will do a deal with a publishing house if that happens, but it's about the process. It's about the storytelling. It's about chasing that, that thing inside you that's like, you have another story to tell.

Yeah. And so if I was to encourage, you know, other authors out there that are climbing up the mountain, you know, it's like, don't ever give up, write the story, make it as great as you can make it. And then don't back down from telling the world about it. Right. You know, you just put yourself out there. Now you got to go the next step and tell anyone that will listen, read my story, read, read this book, you know? And so anyway, that's

part of my journey. is so encouraging and so exciting. Encouraging. That's really the word. Because we all think, or some people think, you can't make it as an indie guy because I'm going to get lost in the shuffle. But you know, back to your earlier point, you're going to have to put in the time and the energy in their work anyway, whether the house does it or whether you do it.

You're going to have to do it either way. I always come back to this and I asked this question of myself and of others. How badly do you want it? That really comes down to pretty much everything.

The Thriller Zone with David Temple (42:30.699)
Well, I want to do it so such and such. Okay. Well, have you done this? Well, no. Have you done this? Well, kind of. Have you done this a little bit? Have you done this? No. Well then how badly do you really want it? If you haven't done that, your actions are telling me you don't really want it that badly. Yeah. And I think, you know, for any creative, there is always that fear that you're going to create something you love and people aren't going to resonate with it.

But what I've learned, because we can easily get distracted with, let's look at sales numbers, let's look at all this stuff. What I've found is if you love the process, if you love the idea of sitting down and saying, I got a spark of an idea for a character or for a story, if you love that process of writing, you know, with like, my life is kind of split in two pieces.

I do production, so I'm around a lot of people. And then I write novels where I'm not around anyone but myself. And I kind of like both. When you're working with a team of people, and that goes back to what we talking about a little bit earlier, when you have skin in the game, whether it's with a publisher or with your own team of people, when you have skin in the game and you're working alongside others, the end product is going to be better.

yeah. You know, and so learning to work in that environment as a creative is really important. and then, you know, being the isolated writer, writing by yourself with your headphones on in a coffee shop or in your house, wherever it is, I love that part of the process too. I love them both. And it's a, it's a good balance because I think the publishers are going to require more from authors apart from just writing the story.

And so the more you can get used to that part of a lifestyle of storytelling, I think the better, you know, the better it will be. Like we're shopping, like I said, we're shopping the series around and I've had, I've been able to speak at different writers conferences. And the first thing is, well, you know, if they option it, what if they change the whole thing? You know, and I'm like, well, I've been around this long enough to know that will happen. Yes.

The Thriller Zone with David Temple (44:54.271)
you know and the only thing I can hope for is to just be in the room with the other creatives and be able to see how they're going to change it, what's going to happen but I don't expect to have any say in it you know. And I think it's a healthy perspective. I've talked to Lee Goldberg, Kathy Reichs, we kicked off season seven with her, she said a similar thing in that, Mark Graney's famous for saying this and I referenced it with Kathy Reichs. You're going to write your book.

you're going to be a complete and total control of that universe. And then if producer guy comes along and says, I want it, you're going to sell it, make money. He's going to do with it as he wishes. And so be it. The people who go, but you've ruined, you've ruined it. The book was so much better. There's an interpretation. got 444 pages there. You can't turn 444 pages.

into a screenplay. Screenplay is going to be 124. Or even a series. a series. Think of the streaming series. Those are mostly eight, maybe 10 episodes. Right. You'll never fit an entire book in 10 episodes, 10 40 minute episodes. Never going to happen. I mean, unless you're, you know, I'm trying to think of like the best screenwriter on the planet. Here's a perfect example. It was a picture of a glacier. So you see how big the glacier is above water?

and how deep it is underneath. And it said, here's the Harry Potter movies below the water. Here's the Harry Potter books. Yeah. You know, it's like 10 times as deep, you know? And so as much as you like the Harry Potter movies, which I think they got better towards the end, I'm a huge fan of the books. Yeah. You know? And so of course not everything makes it into the film. Right. Of course, JK Rowling, she has enough.

leverage to probably have a lot of input, but you want for that, you know, it's a different outlet. The books are one thing, film is another, streaming series is another one. And those directors, those producers that are experts in those fields, you want them to give you their interpretation. It's going to be way better than you could even imagine as the author.

The Thriller Zone with David Temple (47:16.011)
Yeah. You know, unless you live and breathe producing, directing, like if you're not doing all those things, trust me, those guys will come in even with a different point of view, but they will give their spin on it. And, know, like, like we said, you can't, there's no formula for this at the end of the day. Then you'll find out if the audience loves it. Yeah. You won't know until it's created. You know, that made me think of something.

I look at self -publishing world, a lot of the folks, especially in traditional world, because I've heard this now a number of times without mentioning names. Well, you're not really legitimate until you go the traditional route. Now, you can spin that a couple of different ways. I'm not going to drill down on that. But here's what I think about. Traditional, the biggest point.

is the access. They're going to, those agents, those publishers are going to give you access to a much bigger audience automatically because they built, spent decades building those relationships. But I often will say to people, and you and I've chatted about this offline, Hey, I want to write a book. You ever written a book before? No.

Do you know how to write? No. Do you know anything about it? No. But you want to write a book. Yeah. Go write the book. Go write the book. And when you're done and you've given it the best shot you can, and if you still need my input, back and then I'll kind of help you figure out where to go. And if you just want to self publish it so that you can get it in front of you and hand it to your friends, there's nothing wrong with that. You're going to make what I call beer money. Maybe.

Maybe. But if you don't, whatever. What blows my mind is, and you've got great book covers, is when people will write a self -published, I've got it, Dave, I've got this covered. And then they put a shitty cover on And I'm like, you do realize no one's going to buy the book because people don't judge a book by its cover anymore. I'm like, yes, they do. Yeah, that's, mean, especially now.

The Thriller Zone with David Temple (49:41.293)
You think of brick and mortar retail, you know, the shelf space. Unless you're one of the big major authors, your shelf space is the spine. You you think about that. And then also on Amazon, any online retailer, it's no longer the book cover that's this size. It's now a thumbnail. That book cover has to look killer as a thumbnail now.

Yes. So there is definitely a trick to it. You know, for the Hardiman series, my buddy, Nick Castle does the covers. He does covers for other, other authors too. And, know, if I was going to give anyone advice on that, I would say budget for editing and budget for a cover. Because that, especially if people are just finding you for the first time, that's what's going to bring them in.

They read the sample online or they see the image of the cover and they're like, okay, I want to check this out. Yeah, dude, I'm going to tell you one of the best lessons that I learned and it was the harshest and hardest and I'm not going to go down the line too hard on it is I wrote a book. I was one those guys, you know who I'm talking about. I'm just going to write this book. I'm going to get it out there. Well,

David, voice of reason, have you edited it? It's okay, it's good, it's good, it's good. Did you use any pro writing aid? Did you use anything? No, no, no, no, I got it. I had my next door neighbors brothers who used to be a part -time English teacher read it over. Okay, good. But if you got mistakes and you got typos and you missed tenses,

or you rename characters, people will not put up with that. And I learned that the hard way. I got some blazing reviews on some of my very, you know, I've written nine self -published and just wanted to see if I could do it. Interesting, I'm going to come back to Lee Goldberg here for a second. Lee Goldberg, one week from today, he's going to tell you stuff. And I don't know if he did it in the show or if he told me offline, but he said, dude,

The Thriller Zone with David Temple (52:01.025)
take all those books that you've written, take them off Amazon, ditch them, throw them away, forget they ever existed. What? beer money, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no,

mediocre reviews at best and the one that you're really excited about, he had to pull this number up. It's like 1 million or something. And I'm like, you don't have to do that, Lee. He well, just get rid of it. I thought I was doing myself a favor and folks, want you to, for the up and coming writers who listen to this, I thought I was doing myself a favor by getting my testing the muscles and working out and kind of, no, no, no, that's homework. Do the homework. He said, instead,

You want to write those books, stick them in a drawer. Unless you really got an ego playing, you got to do it or you need the money. Put it in a drawer so that when agent comes along and says, hey, DJ.

The of the night is amazing. What else have you got? Best line in Hollywood. What else you got? Then you can reach in that same drawer, pull it out and go, well, I got this one. What else you got? And I got this one. Yeah, you're only as good as the last one. That's in Hollywood. That's how it works. That felt like a long ramble, but it meets it. But I think, like, I've done what I've done with my first two books were The Disillusioned and Waking Lazarus. And they did OK as an indie.

I love the stories of them. I probably don't ever want to go back and have to rewrite them, you know, because they were years ago. We pulled the print versions off, but we left the audio books up. It's a lot more forgiving when someone's listening to a narrator telling them the story, you know, rather than catching grammatical stuff, you know. When I indie published The Auctioneer, I did that because

The Thriller Zone with David Temple (54:14.099)
I had a plan. And so the plan wasn't, let's just put it out and let's just see what happens. Like we did everything a traditional publisher would do. You know, we had it edited. We had the covers done. We put a full marketing campaign. You know, we had the tie in with Barnes and Noble. Like we, we released it like a publisher would, would do it.

And so I would, I would agree. Like if you're just putting it out to see, let me see how it goes and see what happens. That can definitely hurt you when it circles back to an opportunity with an agent or someone like that. The flip side is if you go into it with the mindset of I'm going to build something. And if I hadn't had done that with the auctioneer, I would not have gotten a traditional deal.

because when they were able to look at what the auctioneer did, you know, with reviews and like Kirkus reviews and stuff like that, that can also get you over the hump, you know, with an agent or with a publishing house. And if they see what you're bringing to the table. So when they looked at what we did for the auctioneer, they saw, you know, we cut the trailers, we did the marketing, we did all that. So when I signed the Beacon Hill deal,

They knew what we were bringing to the table. Right. And it is so if you're going that mindset, you know, you have to be selective. You have to really feel like the book is as great as you can possibly make it. But I wouldn't self -publish unless you are really going to put it out like a major publisher. That's solid advice. You know, I think. But but if you're not ready for it, I would definitely go that route of write the stories.

put them in the file cabinet. I've got three or four books that have never seen the light of day and just keep them until the right opportunity comes. But if you're savvy on social, especially right now, if you're savvy on social, if you're a marketing, if you love the marketing as much as the writing, then you can do it on your own to get your foot in the door, I think.

The Thriller Zone with David Temple (56:38.079)
So here's a question I have for you, because we're talking about indie Amazon, Barnes and Noble. Where, what are some other channels of good indie that represents good indie press outside of those two? Well, definitely if you can get in, definitely the independent bookstores, you know, the, ones that are in your, your city or your area. mean, if I, if I remember the stats right,

I think they're saying like 80 % of book sales is on Amazon. So it's the monster you have to navigate. Now, if we're getting in the weeds of how you do that, we've done pretty well on the Amazon ads. And the Amazon ads have changed over the years, like how you run those. But we have a couple of tools that we use that help us.

narrow down like keywords and bidding and all that. But see now the major houses are going that route where a lot of emphasis is on Amazon. So if you don't know how to run the ads, you will spend your budget quick and have a low click through rate. So we've done a lot of research on that for our stuff. When the books come, because you're indie,

You can't pre -sell a lot because like, especially with Amazon, you can't pre -sell the print books until the release date. It doesn't sell. So you have to kind of set up your launch with the Amazon ads especially, is you want those to hit on the release date and then build from there. So it's a little slower build is what happened with the auctioneer when we did that. But once those ads are running and you've got them optimized,

then if it's a good story, I've been fortunate enough to have some great endorsements from you, from Ryan, James Rollins, Jack Stewart. When you get people that are banging the drum alongside, that will really help. But I think so much of it now is on the Amazon side. I want to bring up something, and I don't think I've told you this, and I'm doing this for my audience.

The Thriller Zone with David Temple (59:02.177)
DJ is a prime example of this.

You reached out to me a long time ago. months ago, months and months and months ago. And I get a lot of people reaching out to me. Generally speaking, I will not, and you gotta, you gotta listen to this and understand where I'm going with this. I will not take a lot of attention with indie publishers because I'm trying to make

Even a modicum of a living off of this. The only way I can do that is through sponsorships like yourself. People who want to run ads on the show outside of a prime sponsorship because it takes a lot of money and time and energy to do this. But here's something I want to say about you and it's my tip of the hat to you is that you were persistent but not obnoxious. There is persistent.

And that is obnoxious. And then what you have done is you have just completely pissed me off and I won't even, I'll throw your books away. But something about your method and you were just, Hey, just checking in. Hey, just checking in. That goes miles with me. And then to be courteous and going, Hey, let me send you, let me send you my books. There's a couple of authors out there who have done this. Terrence McNally did this too. He sent me a bunch of books and he just said, you know, when you get around to it,

And this went on for maybe a year or so so I want I reason I'm saying that is I Congratulate you and a high five you because you were patient, but she had book good book covers I knew it was self a couple of different things told me that that but I didn't mind that But then it was just watching you on social media and I'm like this guy knows what he's doing And I'm not saying that to blow smoke up your skirt, but I'm saying here's a guy who and back to your earlier point

The Thriller Zone with David Temple (01:01:03.551)
You take this seriously. You treat this as though it's the only job you have. And when I see that, I'm like, I'm all in on you. And then I'll do, as you've seen me do, I'll do extra work for you just because I believe in you and you're going to hit it and you'll thank me one day. And that's good enough. So I say that for people who want to know how to get the word out, just be tasteful, be courageous, and don't send an email and says,

Hey there, learn what my name is. This has been happening some lately. You gotta be careful with those messages. They say, hey there, you don't want to respond. Yeah, I don't respond to that. Anyway. I think what it makes me think of too is...

folks Dave Temple here. I hope you're enjoying this episode of the Thriller Zone with DJ Williams. As you can tell these face -to -face conversations make all the difference in the world when you're chilling out together in the same room, right? You know what I'm talking about. They get more real, more honest, and more inside baseball. So if you're enjoying the show, hang with me as we're going to continue with DJ in just a minute. But before we do, I'd like to ask you a small favor and I have a gift for you simply for playing along. Take two minutes tops and go to our website.

There, pretty easy, right? TheThrillerZone .com. In seconds, a box will pop up asking if you'd like to join our mailing list. If you're cool with that and you'd like a free gift just for doing so, fill it in, confirm the email address, and then download my popular thriller, The Poser. Now you're wondering, what's The Poser? Well, The Poser is the first book in my Detective Patricia Norelli series. If you enjoy detective series like Michael Connelly's Bosch and the gritty Eleanor Twist of Robert Crase,

think you'll dig Pat and Rellie series. Again, just go to thethrillerzone .com, share your email knowing we won't spam you with a bunch of nonsense and instead just keep you updated to all that's happening on the Thriller Zone. And again, once you confirm your email, you can download a copy of The Poser. And if you're a fan of audiobooks, I have that available too. As always, thank you for supporting your front row seat to the best thriller writers in the world. Okay, now back to the extended version here in overtime of today's Thriller Zone with DJ Williams.

The Thriller Zone with David Temple (01:03:15.439)
makes me think of too is, and I've learned this over many years and having a great group of friends, relationships are the cornerstone to all of us. building friendships, building authentic relationships, there was a point in my life before COVID, I think we had pitched a dozen shows around town and

You're not going to convince anyone to say yes. You just need to show them what you have and you need to do it in a respectful way and in a way that even if they pass, you know, you're going to go back in and pitch something else to that same person. So, you know, you don't want to be the squeaky wheel. You want to be the guy that's like, look, here's what we have. We believe in it. Here's what we love to do. If they pass, you're coming in with something else. Yeah.

And I think I've taken the same approach with the books. I I love these characters. I love the stories. You know, I never want to feel like I'm putting anyone in a spot to be like, man, now we got to promote DJ stuff. But I want to share it with people. And then, you know, as we've done today, really encourage authors, you know, wherever they're at. It's like.

that creativity has been instilled in you for a reason and chase that down and share it with others. like yourself, and I keep bringing up Ryan, because he's a good buddy, they'll come alongside because they believe in you, they believe in the story. And the catch of it all is if the story is not good, even your best friends are not going to tell anyone about it. True.

It's gotta be, it's gotta be the best you can do, you know? And, and as we were talking off air too, you know, I already know what book three is. I'm amping to like get there. I'm right. I'm writing another book right now. that'll be done hopefully in the next couple of months, but I'm amping to write it. And I know when that book is done, the first, people I want to send it to are going to be all my friends. Yeah.

The Thriller Zone with David Temple (01:05:38.687)
even before it gets, you know, it's going to get edited and totally dialed in. But then I want to share it with close friends and, those have supported this writing journey, you know, because not to work an angle, but just because I'm excited about look, what's going to happen next in this story. Now I want you to read it. And if you have the same reaction I'm having, then I know I'm onto something. Yeah. You know,

Couple things, I'm gonna come back to King of the Night and I've heard you use the word chase about six times in our conversation and it keeps reminding me, where did you come up with Chase Hardeman? Very few authors will go, will really drill down and tell me but. Yeah, the idea for Chase, one of my best buddies was one of the greatest car auctioneers of all time.

And I spent a lot of time with him. We'd be driving in his car. We'd be going to something that we were working on. And he would tell me these stories about the auction world. And I'm like, literally, how is all this true? It's so unbelievable. It should be in a novel. Yeah. And I started thinking, well, what if I took my buddy and I placed a little Jason Bourne and a little James Bond and mixed it all together.

So you have this high end auction world, but you also have this gritty, you know, on the ground, Chase and Dax will take out the bad guys, you know. And that's where Chase kind of, kind of started, you know, a funny story about, about my buddy. I called him up one day and I hear all this noise. I hear all these people yelling in the background. I'm like, what is going on? And he goes, dude, hold on one second. But he leaves me on the phone.

And so he's like, 68 Camaro, we're starting at 80 ,000, 80 ,000. Now we got 95, 95, 95. And he's talking like a mile a I mean, it's just, I could just listen to him like all day. And then I hear him say, I got DJ Williams on the line. He is bidding $110 ,000. And I'm like, I'm not bidding anything. know, I'm on the phone listening. He's like 110, 110. We go up to 120, 120. And I'm just like, what is happening?

The Thriller Zone with David Temple (01:08:02.733)
And then I think he sold it for like $130 ,000, maybe $140 ,000. And he goes, I'll call you right back. And he hangs up. And I'm sitting there. And I'm just like, what just happened? Five minutes later, he calls me up. He's like,

That was so awesome. I'm like, dude, what would have happened if no one outbid me and I wasn't even bidding? You know, goes, that was one of our cards. So we weren't too worried about it. I'm like, dude, unbelievable. So, I mean, just the stories he would share and, you know, fictionalized, obviously, but but in the auctioneer, one of the storylines in there is definitely based off of a real scenario.

And, you know, future stories that'll make it into the books are definitely based off of stuff that he's told me. but yeah, I mean, once I, once I wrapped my head around chase Hardiman as the character, then I was like, yeah, I know where this is going. And how long did it take to come up with his name? okay. So here's a confession for everyone. I pick names pretty fast. do too. Usually the very first one stays. So I thought about.

You know, the way I write, as we shared earlier, like to me, a story for me is like about chasing it down. And I thought chase that also implies for the reader, like this is going to be high octane page Turner, you know, and then hard of, and I think I just did a search for different last names and I'm like, that sounds cool. Let's go with that. And here's another question. So his buddy Dexter, Dexter Thompson.

But you call him Dax not Dex. Yeah. Why? Yeah. Again, I have no good explanation for that one, except I'm like Dax is a cool name. Okay. So that makes, but I'm about four pages in. like, wait a minute. His name is Dexter Thompson. You keep saying Dax and I'm like, and I used to have a, my last pet was Dexter and I call him Dex and I'm like, and this is just, you know, whatever. But I'm like Dax. don't get it.

The Thriller Zone with David Temple (01:10:15.585)
Yeah, I wish I had some philosophical reason for why I did it, but that could be part of the way I write too, is I write every chapter is like a scene in a film. And then I do enough research to be dangerous, but I don't spend a lot of time researching. know, if I have to look up something on Google or Google Maps or whatever, I'll do that. A lot of the places in the books I've actually been to. there's that firsthand.

point of view, you know, but I write pretty fast. Yeah. And so that was probably one of those moments early on where I'm like, I don't want to call him Dexter in the whole, but let's go with Dex. I just went for it. A couple of things. I'm going to refer back to Lee because again, he gives a great masterclass in some of these points and some of it has to do with, he gives just enough information to tell you where he is, but he doesn't belabor it because

his whole thing and we had this long discussion about white space, about keeping the story moving, keeping your eye moving, keeping your eye moving and how important that is. I also liked the fact that you had a nice little bit of love story in there. And when I say love story, it's more of a romance, not like a romance novel. And that always intrigues me because if your guys, if your main characters, protagonist, antagonist, male, female are not, if I'm not pulled to them and engaged and

have skin in the game on them in a relationship with them emotionally. I'm not interested. I gloss over it. It's kind of like reading a cliche. When I see a cliche, my eye, I don't even know what they say because it's a cliche. So I liked the fact that you did that. I'd say Chase's love life is complicated. Yeah. And at the end of the auctioneer, you're left wondering what path chase is going to take the last sentence. Yep. And then in king of the night,

We're picking up, chase and Dax about I think six or eight months after the end of the auctioneer. And you're still not quite sure what route he's taking. And then we throw a bunch of other twists in there and Chase's his love life is complicated. Sometimes they are. I have a question that has nothing to do with anything, really important from the standpoint of it doesn't page count doesn't matter.

The Thriller Zone with David Temple (01:12:41.037)
And I had a conversation with you earlier about 444 pages. Do you think your books will always be on that longer side or do you think you'll you see yourself? I think the Hardiman series, I think there'll be around 100, 105 ,000 words. Yeah. Is usually that the interesting on the Beacon Hill series, the young adult series, I feel like that genre leads even longer. yeah.

So book one was 107 ,000, book two was 115, book three was 100, I think it's almost 120. And so I've been writing two books a year, but with the longer word count. So, and the one I'm writing now, I think it's going to land at like hundred thousand by the time it's done. anybody said to you, like if a traditional agent, a publisher came to you and said,

We really like that premise of this, but you need to cut it. think cut anything that is not necessary. That's the, that's the approach I would take. You know, like if you're writing, for example, if you're writing a script, you know, depending on what it's for, if it's TV streaming or our film, you have a certain number of pages. So that's a whole different mindset because you're only going to put in what is absolutely necessary. You know, and you're going to cut.

any of the fat out because you've got this many pages. Yeah. So with books, it's a little different, because you can, I mean, was Mark Greenie. I think I watched one of his interviews. Like he, he writes some long books, but if every part of that story is necessary, then it makes total sense. But I'm all about cut out anything that doesn't.

Anything that slows down the story, anything that takes you and like, you know, go in the left field. I'm, I'm, I'm open. You you didn't, you impressed me as being someone who has been writing their whole life, but this was not an early passion of yours. No, I think I've always been a storyteller. I read treasure treasure Island when I was eight years old.

The Thriller Zone with David Temple (01:15:03.403)
you know, which was hilarious. I don't even know how I got my hands on the book. I read it like two days and then I read the whole Narnia series after that. and then I didn't read for a long time, you know, but I always thought I'd be a professional basketball player. But then I realized I couldn't jump any higher. I was going to get any taller. I was tired of guarding guys that were six foot five, you know, but I think I've always been a storyteller, whether it was producing music where you're telling stories through songs and lyrics.

Even as a GM at the entertainment company, it was helping artists tell their stories, whether it was through music videos or whatever else. And then through the production company, through the projects we've worked on, you're storytelling all the time. The outlet of the books, that I would not have foreseen until I wrote

the first novel. And then I realized at the end of that, you know, I love the creative process. Something about writing a book to me is like, that's, that's my wheelhouse. Yeah. You know, that's what I do most naturally. Everything else, some of it comes natural. Some of it is just hard work. You know, writing the books is just something that just flows, you know.

Well, I'm going to circle back to how I started the conversation and the King of the Night is one of those books that you don't really fully appreciate how good it is until you're about halfway through and you realize, wow, DJ has really crammed a lot of story into this book. There's not, there's very little superfluous going on. The characters are

fully enhanced and thought out the plot. You know, if you like jumping around the globe, which I'm a big fan of, then you're going to love the book. So kudos to you. It really does make me go. I can't wait to see what Chase will do next. Well, and just to throw this out there with King of the Night, a great editor. mean, if you find a great editor, they can really

The Thriller Zone with David Temple (01:17:25.581)
bring the story to the next level. when you get the edits back, you have to go through that moment where you curl up in a corner and cry because you look at 10 ,000 edits and you're like, OK, I suck as a writer. That's part of the process, unfortunately. But in a good way, when I got that back, my editor really dialed in to, OK, here's the story you're telling.

let's amp it up to another level and challenge me to go back and tweak certain things, add things here so that those reveals are even more impactful than when I had it finished. I think you brought a really good point up. We don't give enough credence to the editing process. think we, I'm going to speak for myself.

I always thought early on, you're just going to make sure thing is spelled right and in the right place and so forth. But it goes, you're talking developmental editing. That's where you really take it to the next level. And I want to ask two questions. As a ballpark, because we are giving, it's almost like we're giving a little crash course on self -publishing. What could one expect to pay ballpark for a good editor? I'm not talking about copy line editing. I'm talking about developmental. Question one.

And question two, how long would we expect a developmental editor to take in turning the notes around? A two -part second question. And then how long will it take you to kind of take and turn that around? I think I would say the budget number is tricky because that comes down to you need to find an editor that's in your genre. And then whoever that editor is.

You know, there's different levels of their experience. So you're going to pay more for the more experienced guys. And, I was fortunate enough to find probably one of the best editors in the thriller genre. And that budget number will remain or will remain a secret, but it was enough to hurt. Yeah. But it was well worth the investment. I mean, by far, if you're thinking.

The Thriller Zone with David Temple (01:19:50.093)
you know, if we're really going to make it the best it can be and we want it to get out there, then, then we build that into the budget of what we're doing. My point is you're not going to spend a 500 to a thousand dollars. You're going to spend several thousand dollars. So you have to know, you have to be committed that this book is, is as good as it is. And we'll, you will work to the nth degree to get it that way. And that you're in this for the long haul, because if you're going to drop

three, five, seven, $8 ,000 on a book on a div... And you know that, are the chances of my getting that back? Yeah, have to, you have to definitely run the numbers to know if you're going to recoup. As far as how long they take, you know, it could be three, four months, depending on their schedule. And typically my turnaround time for edits, even with the young adult series,

is I can turn the edits back around in like six weeks. Okay. So once I get it, I'll block out like a week at a time on my production schedule and just hit it. And it's a different mindset because you're not rewriting your book. So it's kind of like you're like a sniper, you know, so you're going into certain spots that they're marking and you're like, gonna fix that, gonna fix that, gonna fix that.

And then I'll put the book down for a couple of weeks after I've done all that. Don't think about it. Don't even look at it. And then I'll wait a few weeks, then I'll come back and then I'll sit down and read the whole thing as if I'm just a reader and see where I'm at, if it's making it better.

The Thriller Zone with David Temple (01:21:35.981)
So you could very easily, two more questions, you could very easily, yes or no, read this a multitude of times. yeah, definitely. And secondly, do you find yourself, you've come up with a story, you've written a story, you've handed it to your editor, they hand the notes back, you get down, you do it, and then you realize, there's more here. Have you ever gotten to that point?

You mean adding to it? You mean, all the time. Okay. Yeah. When I, when I turned in, the Beacon Hill, hunt, freedom star was book one. When I turned that book in, it was 85 ,000 words. That was what we all agreed to. I send it in. They hit me back the publisher and they said, we love it. Can we expand on this world? So I went from 85 ,000 words.

to my expanded version of 107 ,000 words. Wow. Because once I knew, you're giving me the freedom and the flexibility now to really add to what I have here, then that one took me a little longer. I think it took me a couple months to do that. And then we went back through more rounds of edits. 20 plus thousand, 27. It was like after 20 chapters, I Yeah.

It's a good place to be though. Yeah, no, I, you know, I'm, I'm still, always feel like I'm the underdog. I'm the guy climbing the mountain. I'm still learning, you know, I will watch anything and everything from other authors that are, that are, you know, at a different level than I am, you know, I'll watch every new show that comes out. Cause I want to see what, what our audiences resonating with. Cause then that's going to help determine.

what kind of stories I'm writing, what kind of things I'm doing. So I'm constantly watching, listening, you know, like Jack Carr, I've never met him. I would love to sit down with him, not just talk, not just to talk about writing, but talk about, okay, how did you build this brand? Cause I am as interested in that as the storytelling. You know, so you can, you can glean so much from other writers.

The Thriller Zone with David Temple (01:24:00.299)
not just on the craft, but also on just how they approach things, how they storytell. Like John Grisham, one of my favorite books from John Grisham was The Testament. It may not have been his most popular book, but reading that, and then years later I find myself standing on the Zambezi River. His took place in the Amazon, which I've been there as well.

I think those two things together. I'm like, I love that story. Can I write a story that has little threads of that and then takes it in a whole nother direction? I don't know. Let's find out. But I'm constantly learning, think. I think that's where you want to be as a creative person, for sure. You mentioned absorbing content for ideas. Do you have one or two shows, series?

or movies that have captured your attention lately where you're like, yeah, I can do this. Yeah. I mean, this one's older, the born series. Let's just check that off the list. Yellowstone. I'm a big Yellowstone fan. There were things that they did in Yellowstone that I just, at the end of the episode, I'm like, I can't believe they, that happened. And so

Like that, probably that series to me, I will say there's a lot of series that are out there that, you know, the good and the bad of Netflix and Amazon Prime, there's so much content. But now you have to sift through the content to find the good ones. And the one that I have been reading or watching recently was, I'm going to mess up the title, so I'm totally busted. Is it Sloughouse?

What's the name of that series? Slow Horses? Slow Horses. that because I've been watching the series. I got confused between Slow Horse and Sly House. I've been watching that series. I'm late to the game to watch it. And I love that kind of storytelling. That's a little LaCarré -esque. Off the beaten path. You know, it's the dunces. But you know, you'll pull things from different stories. And sometimes, like even the

The Thriller Zone with David Temple (01:26:25.025)
the Hardiman stuff, you know, I'll be watching a completely different kind of series and something will happen between the characters and you're like, hmm, that's pretty interesting. I wonder how that would work in my world, my writing world, you know? Isn't it interesting, you know, we've gone from, we went from cable and regular television to streaming and then streaming came on like a force of nature. And then there was this, you know, plethora of

content coming out and then like you use the word sift through it. I'm like, that's really what it comes down to. Cause Tammy and I say this every night. We've got Netflix, Hulu, Apple, Paramount plus HBO or whatever they're calling Max. Then we've got the regular channels and then we still are ready and we're still looking because like you can wheel. has become a joke.

that we could spend a half hour trying to find something. And it has gotten to the point, honey, I hope you're not listening, that I'm like, baby, if you can't figure out something to watch real fast, I'm going to go work on another book. You know, because this waste and this time. Sorry. Another series that just came to mind is Mare of Kingstown. Unbelievable. One of my favorites. Yeah. That one is.

It's as unpredictable as it is. So it's so guess I'm a Taylor Sheridan follower. I was going to bring his name up because he really has got the juice. He's he's got. Well, and here's what's interesting. If you look at Yellowstone, you look at Merritt Kingstown, you look at some of his other projects. They're all completely different.

He's not taken like a template of, look, my storytelling worked. So now I'm just going to drop that into this different world. God he doesn't do it. No, it's like everything feels so original. Yeah. anyway, Mayor of Kingstown's Mayor of Kingstown. And shout out to Jeremy Renner, who has undergone one of the best, biggest, awe -inspiring rehabs from getting rolled over by that machine. 100%. Up in Tahoe. Yeah.

The Thriller Zone with David Temple (01:28:44.713)
I followed the entire journey because we have friends in Tahoe, so we're up there a lot. And if you've ever experienced those winters, you know how brutal they can be. And then I saw the video of what happened to him. It's incredible. And then I've watched how he's rehabbed. So when I watch the show now in this latest season, I watch it with a different appreciation because I realized what he had to go.

through to get ready to get ready. it's it's mine. That's a superhero. Yeah. Yeah. And it's just so it's, it's kind of like, guess it comes down to casting in a way, but it also he's so good at, and I think Costner is the same way. They're so good at encapsulating what you envision as a character. Absolutely. And then they like inject their point of view.

You know, yeah, and it's I mean, it's so good. The way this last season ended. hmm. You know, now it's a show. If you're if you don't like dark and foul language and a lot of mayhem, then it's not your show. But I do. Must be the good Christian upbringing I have. But the way that you saw his character arc and then at the end and the way that he was tormented.

Wow. And I think of Denzel Washington. Think of Training Day. Think of Man on Fire. You think of how dark those stories are. Little sheds of light. But he became those characters.

You cannot watch Man of Fire with another actor in that place and have it be as convincing. You know, it just wouldn't happen. I'll say that same thing for another series he did and actually produced by my buddy Tony Eldridge, Equalizer. Yeah, that's another one. There's a series where you...

The Thriller Zone with David Temple (01:31:03.273)
I know it was based on another guy and when you first saw Denzel you continued to see the other guy. I can't recall his name. But now I can't think of Equalizer without thinking of Denzel. will say that the first two were fantastic and by the third he felt like he was sleepwalking through it a little bit. Well, I think each one of got darker. I think the challenge is to, you know, from a

from a storytelling point of view, when something's successful and now you've got to come out with like the sequel or the third one, like that is not an easy task. No. Because a lot of times you put your best stuff in the first one. Sure. And then when someone comes to you, even with books, put everything you have and I put everything I had in the auctioneer and then I'm like, I think Chase and Dax are going to keep going. Yeah.

they can't keep going unless it's better than the first one. I, that's the, that's the challenge. mean you know. You, you made me think of something and then it slipped out of my head because I was so engaged in what you were saying. John Wick. There's another series. There's a series, the first one you're like my god you killed the dog and the wife's gone, the dog's gone and then by the fourth one you're like

I remember seeing that going, stop with the shooting. Just die. You have to be in a certain mindset to watch those movies. That's like, that's like 11 o 'clock at night. Yes. You're at home. Everyone else is asleep. Yeah. And you've got it on like the big screen with the headphones on surround sound. And you're like, give me all the action just at one time, please. And not like that last scene where they're going up the steps.

you know, and everyone's coming at him and he should, I think it was, probably a good choice that they let him go as a character. well, I mean, think about what he had to put his body through. Right. I mean, that's like those movies, you know, going into it, that's like full on combat. You know, I'm going to hurt myself for like nine months. And I think he did end up hurting himself. yeah, I wouldn't be surprised. I mean, that's.

The Thriller Zone with David Temple (01:33:30.091)
You know, I was, well, Jeremy Renner was even talking. I think he had, he had, he used to do like some of his own stunts. He's literally like, he's like, now I let the stunt man do what they're good at, which is smart. You know, you made a comment as we were setting up the cameras, folks, we were, DJ was talking about, know, how does Joe Rogan go on for two, three, four hours? And I said, well, I didn't say this, but I'm going to say it now.

When you're sitting down face to face, it becomes way easier. mean, when you're on the zoom call, whatever system you use, if you're, you know, you, you, know that you got to get in and you're get out. Cause there's only so much time and. Attentions are fractured. But when you get to sit down like this and just talk very easy. And the only reason we're not sitting over there on the couch is.

with popcorn and cold beer is that we would never get out of here. We're gonna put John Wick on in like five minutes. Well as we start to wrap up because it has been quite a journey and I've so enjoyed it I'd love to as you know what do I end every show with best writing advice and you have hit some excellent points you brought up some really good points both traditionally and

independently. you know, if you had to boil it down, and I'm going to put you on the spot and say, boil it down to like one or two things that you go, boy, writers, if you want to succeed in this business, here you go. I think the big one is finish the stories you start. Yeah. I've spoken to so many people that have gone down this journey. get halfway through writing their book and they're like, I'm going to start over.

you know, are they'll re -edit that first half of the book for the next five years. Right. And, know, I have to fight that temptation too, from getting part way through saying, I'm going to go back and fix some stuff. Yeah. Sit down, get that first draft down, no matter how long it takes, don't be in a hurry, make it as great as you can make it. Then once that draft is done, you can go back and fix the first half, the second half.

The Thriller Zone with David Temple (01:35:44.127)
You can add characters, can add storylines, know, finish the stories. And if only you're the only one to ever read it, then that's fine. You know, right. Just let your create. It's a storytelling creativity side. Just let that flow. And my second piece of advice would be write something that is authentic and true to who you are as a storyteller.

Don't think about what's the hot thing right now. Yeah. know, who's the hot character out there that I could kind of copy something off of. Because by the time you've written that story, and if you're lucky enough to get it in front of people, all of that can completely change. Yeah. So make it as original and as authentic to who you are as you can. I think that is, I don't think there's any better advice right there.

You can't finish something that you don't start and be authentic and original as you possibly can be that you're really in love with. Because as you've made a point earlier, you're spending three, six, nine, 12, maybe two years with this book by the time you... And it's funny. So give it your best. It's funny. I will often, and I've been doing this on this latest book, I'll come up with an idea.

and I'll sit on it and I'll just massage that thought in my head for days. Days will become weeks, weeks will become months because to your point, I don't want to go, that's so Jason Bourne, that's so John Wick, that's so Lee Jack Reacher. I want it to be as fresh and original as it can possibly be.

It has to have enough of me as we all do. has to have enough of you that you can say, hey, this dark side of myself, this smart ass side of myself, this enlightened side of myself that I don't talk about or I don't display on a daily basis, I'm going to channel through this story. I just think you're doing yourself a disservice if you rush it. And this is

The Thriller Zone with David Temple (01:38:03.469)
Yeah, I often say this. did this recently. Hey, if you could go back to your 10 year old self and give yourself advice, I would say, Hey David, come here and sit down. Don't be in such a hurry. Live with it. Think about it. Give it time to breathe. Make some notes. Pull it. got, I got notebooks, stacks of notebooks of things I've started ideas. I'm like, okay, I'll get around to it. And I'd say, be kind to yourself.

Be sure that you're absorbed in the character. Give yourself permission to both succeed and fail and have fun. Because if you're not doing those things, why do it? Yeah, I think that what I add to that is take risks and have no regrets. You might chase something down, whether it's a book or some other.

thing in your life and it might turn into something you never expected. It might be a dead end, but then you know you're going to go in a different direction. You know, part of my my life and maybe it's from growing up in Hong Kong and having kind of an adventurous side to me since I was four years old is I'm willing to take risks to see what's on the other side. And if it doesn't work out the way I thought it would.

then I'm going to look for what's the next risk that I can take. And I don't want to have any regrets, you know, 15, 20 years from now of, man, I wish I would have chased this down. Yeah. Or I wish I would have written this or I wish I would have produced this. Like I want to be about taking risks because then you know, you know, there's no regrets at the end of the day. Exactly.

Well, folks, if you want to learn more about DJ Williams, I got a website for you. Check this out. DJ Williams books .com. Yes, sir. I like how he does it. I should like loop that on social. Thanks again for spending time with me. thanks for having me. And for driving all the way down from Los Angeles. Any excuse to get out of LA, I'm down. You know, and it's funny, Steve Yerzani is going to be here next week. He's coming in from Canada.

The Thriller Zone with David Temple (01:40:26.163)
Steve Stratton came in from Colorado a few months back. Don Winslow, who lives right up the hill in Julian, he came in here on his one of his final, that was a highlight of my life. yeah, I watched that. That was just awesome. It sat right there, right here. my gosh, he was so good. So my point to that is, there's only so many hours in the day, so much time. If you want to be on the show, consider coming to San Diego. It's pretty fantastic.

It's nice to get out of the city, believe me. Yeah. And we live in a nice resort and the weather today is spectacular. So throwing a little plug in for the Thriller Zone on location. Do it. Do it. It's fun. Again, djwilliamsbooks .com. Dude. Thanks, Dave. Thank you. I am Taylor Moore, author of Cold Trail, and I hope you'll join me next week when I'm joining David Temple on the Thriller Zone.

The Thriller Zone!