Lee Goldberg's Ashes Never Lie, and the Power of Humor in the Thriller Genre

The Thriller Zone with David Temple (00:00.136)

Hi, my name's Lee Goldberg and I'm the author of Ashes Never Lie. And I'm a guest on season seven of The Thriller Zone. You would not believe who I had to pay off and sleep with to get this rare opportunity. Please, please, please watch and tell your friends so I can do this again without having to pay so much. Hello and welcome to the 198th episode of The Thriller Zone. I'm your host David Temple. And as you see, our special guest today is none other than Lee Goldberg.

Let's talk about his book, Ashes Never Lie, starting now. life is an open book. It's a boring book, but it's an open book. It's a comedy. I need some more action and some more sex, but it's getting there. Well, welcome back and thank you for swinging back around to the neighborhood for the Thriller Zone Season 7 debut premiere. Do you have a whole new theme song opening title sequence?

Yeah, I'm going to sing it for you right now. But yeah, welcome back. When did we speak last? It was Malibu Burning. So that would have been, was it when? Well, Malibu Burning was September of 2023. Jesus. was And then I had my book Calico in November of 2023 and then Dreamtown in January of 2024. And now this book, Ashes Never Lie in September. I have another book coming out in April called Hidden in Smoke.

Another book that I'm writing right now, I just printed out the latest draft, which is coming out in October of 2025. And then I'll get nothing. Then my career is over. I have nothing at that point. No, no, no. My contract is up. They're going to realize, my God, why are we in business with that fat talent with Jew?

Now we are recording and we have started. So if you don't want me to add that, I will cut it out. You should cut it all out. Okay. I thought we hadn't started yet. No, no. That's why I did the big, hey, welcome back to the news. All right. Note to self, Dave. Cut. Didn't know we were on. All right. No, no, no. I'll put myself in my best behavior now. No, and Start again.

The Thriller Zone with David Temple (02:23.346)
This is part of why I like talking to you because you and your brother just like you're just out there and I love that. God, it's my favorite thing about you, Let me know when you're ready. I will pretend to be responsible. No, no. OK. Hey, Lee, welcome back to season seven of the Thriller Zone. You're running longer than Gunsmoke. You're going to be a podcast institution.

Watch out Joe Rogan. Who? Who? Yeah, thank you. Joe Rogan? Who's that? When was the last time he interviewed a stunning, legendary Jewish crime writer? I mean, come on. He never has. Well, there you go. He doesn't count for anything. Right. Dude, it's so good to see you. It's always such a pleasure to talk with you. It's great to see you because you're the only person in my life who calls me dude.

It's always Mr. Goldberg, right? Yes, or your Royal Highness, Mr. Of My House.

Hey, your royal highness, the laundry doesn't get upstairs by itself. Hey, your royal highness, could you please put the toilet seat down occasionally? Hey, your royal highness, you're not as funny as you think you are. Hey, did, how long you guys been married? Cause you refer to her in such a loving, hilarious way. I've been with my current wife, 36 years. Wow. Wow. And what's the magic? What's the secret? The secret? Yeah.

Look at me, buddy. I'm like Donald Trump. To have me be interested in you makes you the chosen one. Yeah. I don't know if you saw his press conference today. He said that the woman who was accused of molesting would never have been one of his chosen ones. Okay. Wow. I just disenfranchised 50 % of your audience, but I don't care. Yeah. Listen, there are parts of this show here in season seven.

The Thriller Zone with David Temple (04:25.036)
I've always been a good guy. I've always done the right thing. It's my upbringing. Can't help it. But there are a few things recently in the common vernacular, on the news, on social media that frankly pissed me off. And I'm ready to maybe approach things just a little bit different. Not like our original start that I'm editing out, but this one.

I was we had sort of like a access Hollywood tape situation earlier in the show me and David I was talking about all the privileges that come with being an internationally famous crime writer and I may have crossed a line So if I ever run for political office David could resurrect that version of the podcast or videocast Whatever you call this thing and and destroy me. Yeah, which I would never

And I'd never run for political office. god. I was president of my HOA for 14 years and I back on it going what the hell was I thinking? Yeah. Do you want to take 30 seconds on Donald Trump or do you want to? No, no, no, no, no. Okay good. We'll keep moving. All right, let me do this because I have one note here. Last last time I saw you face to face was at Bashercon here in San Diego. You look terrific. Thank you. So much better than you did at

Loosing all that weight the facelift that it's done wonders. Thank you. Yeah, thank you. Thank you I of cancer will do for it. So look let me ask you that bad taste I forgot about that. no, I should just leave this right now. No, no, I look all about that Well, you do look terrific and the red you see on my face is not a video glitch It's called foot in mouth

Will say on a personal note because and I'm gonna I'm gonna take just a second on this Lee and I know you're the guy that can hang with me on this I had some guys who? Heard one of my last episodes of last season and they said thank you so much for stepping up and talking about your prostate cancer in such a real way and I said I wasn't going to do it forever and then one day it just kind of came out and and and Lee I

The Thriller Zone with David Temple (06:41.166)
There have been no less than a half a dozen guys who have come to me or written to me and said, thank you for talking about it. I hadn't thought about it the way you had. I kind of had that cavalier attitude the way you did. And then we heard what happened to you. And so thank you. And it has spawned a nonfiction book, which I'm working on right now. and, you know, it has been a little bit tougher on the backside of it than I had anticipated. But as you said, I look fantastic and I feel great.

Well, you can go too far. had a friend who had an author who had prostate cancer. We all knew about it. We were all concerned about him. So I ran into him at a conference. said, I want to his name. How you doing? He says, well, I'm peeing and it's a very strong stream. I have a steady erection and I'm sexually active. I said, you can just say you're fine. I didn't need all that. But I'm glad to know you have a strong stream. Yeah. That'll help you when you sit down to write. Yeah.

All right, we'll move off of that. But I did want to say and thank you for your kind words. We were talking about Bowser con and San Diego. do want you were at the Nashville gig, right? The Nashville Bowser con. Nashville. Yes, I just got back. Yeah. How did you like it? I liked it a lot. I liked it a lot. I mean, I ate my body weight every single day and buttermilk biscuits and fried chicken. But otherwise, I liked a lot. was it was a strange venue. The

Opry land gaylord opry land resort is sort of like what aliens for another planet would do if they kidnapped a few thousand humans and put them on a zoo on their planet. It was in this dome. It sort of represented what a town would look like and even had its own lazy river and faux buildings and stuff. So I this synthetic atmosphere and it was huge. It wasn't easy sometimes to see a lot of people that you wanted to see. I mean, there was the conference portion of this giant facility.

There are a lot of people at the conference I was looking forward to catching up with that I never saw. Yeah. I was there in 1996. I was doing a morning show in New York City and we went down to do a Country Music Award show, hanging out with all the country music stars. The best part was hanging out with Dolly and Reba and all. you used your first names, like you're so close. Hanging out with Dolly and Reba. know, Dolly and I were just hanging out backstage.

The Thriller Zone with David Temple (09:07.182)
But it was a lot of fun, but I remember that venue and we had to have a map just to be able to get through it and it was kind of crazy. had a map on my phone. I had to use the map on my phone. That's how big it was. I never ate a single meal at the Opryland Resort. Bacon and eggs was $35. A diet Coke from a machine was five bucks. So I never ate there. I ate off campus all the time. And the reason this, this,

podcast, video cast, whatever you call it, from here up, is because I just look like I'm ready to give birth to 17 children. I went to this place, Menel's, it's family eating and they just kept bringing baskets of food and if the basket ran low, they brought another one and I felt compelled to eat everything. My brother was with me, we had to be taken out on hand trucks, but it was great fun. I had a really wonderful time. My wife came with me, she doesn't usually come with me, we did a lot of sightseeing.

Wow. There was also what I go to BoucherCon for, which I spent a lot of time with readers, learning what they like or don't like about my books. I spent a lot of time with other authors talking about the business of writing, the craft of writing. I leave these conferences energized, eager to start writing again. Writing in novels, unlike television, is a very solitary experience. You're just sitting in this room by yourself.

And it's nice to get out there and meet other people who are doing the same thing you are. And also to get that feedback from readers, you know, that what you're doing actually means something, that they like what you're writing. And by God, they'll tell you if they don't too. Well, now hang on a second. Hang on a second now. Come on now. I can't imagine anybody saying anything negative about your stuff. And I'm not saying this in a suck up way, because I am a big fan. people say things negative. Really? Like what?

I find your humor in your books inappropriate, it ruins the drama, or they'll be upset that the Eve Ronan character is not 100 % likable, that she keeps making mistakes. And I argue, well, yeah, I want you to be irritated by her, and I enjoy that she's making mistakes. I'm trying not to write a perfect character. I'm trying to write a detective who's learning, who's finding her way, whose ambition exceeds her actual abilities at this point. And to me, that's fun. That's what engages me as a reader.

The Thriller Zone with David Temple (11:32.576)
And if you're yelling at Eve, upset with her while you're reading the book, then I've actually succeeded. As far as humor, well, you know, that's subjective. Everyone has a different sense of humor. right. The book is Ashes Never Lie. while I'm by the way, that's that's a soft. there it is. That's better. OK. To your very point, I have I have about three that I want to make folks out of the gate. God, this was such a good book. Out of the gate page. It's like page two. I laugh.

Out loud. I'm gonna read I'm gonna read a little bit here. Okay, sharp and walker are doing their thing. sharp's grimace seemed to deepen the cracks of his jolly droopy face that made him look constantly weary That sets it up for you right there But then he's now if sharp ever had a facelift walker thought They'd have to pull the skin over his head down his back and to his heels before it tightened up. He continues by saying

We're gonna have so many heads up our asses that our colons will be officially designated convention centers.

The Thriller Zone with David Temple (12:36.684)
Now that is interjecting some questionably tasty tasteful. After you read that, I'm thinking, God, I should have taken another pass at that line. It's a little clunky at the end. I should have sharpened it a bit more. No, stop. Seriously. I could be very critical of my own work when I, you know, with some distance. I should have taken a little more time with that line. Are you being serious right here? I'm being serious. Yeah. Okay. Now do this for me then. The line is we are going to have so many heads up our asses that our colons will be officially designated convention centers.

Now that I left out last. Officially designated convention centers is clunky and a little wordy. I should have done something, know, our colons will be official meeting rooms or something. Officially designated convention centers is odd. It's not a natural phrase. Maybe officially designated as convention centers. But even then, I mean, I was going for a joke there that I don't think I landed and I should have spent more time on it.

and honed it, I don't know why I didn't, and now that you're reading it to me, I'm even more red -faced than when I forgot you had prostate cancer. Are you still being serious with me? Yes, yes. Okay, because I gotta tell you something. I loved it. I do now see what you're saying. It's because you're mentioning, well, you're doing an adverb. It's a long sentence, especially designated convention centers. It takes too long to get there, right? It makes you have to think, what the hell did he just say? I need a cleaner metaphor, a simpler metaphor.

That one didn't work. was reaching too far and I was writing that book too fast and you know, and it's not like I didn't have a chance to fix it. You know, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait. You were writing this book too fast. Yeah, I had a shorter than usual period to write that book, but that's no excuse for not fixing that line and all the other options. mean, because I went through editing, went through copy editing, went through final galleys, all that. I could have fixed that line.

And I don't know why I didn't. So hearing it now from you, I'm thinking, you know, am I, when I get the book I'm writing now back again, I want to, I'm going to pay a little more attention to those, those belabored jokes and see if I can make them less belabored. right. First note clocks in at two 81. Now my favorite length of a book. Seriously. If you, you should be able to tell a book under three. That's that's about 73 or 4 ,000 words. I love, I love.

The Thriller Zone with David Temple (15:03.374)
Like 75 is my new favorite hotspot. That's my favorite spot. mean, when I was writing books with Janet Ivanovich, we were coming in at a hundred thousand words because that was our contractual obligation. My sweet spot is between 65 ,000 and 75 ,000 words. Sometimes I'll go a little larger to 80, but then I feel like it's fat and I try to pull it down. I want my books to move fast. I want them to be quick reads and I don't want to...

to large word counts, not because I'm lazy, but I think a story has a certain amount of air in it, and I don't wanna run out the oxygen in my story. No, dude, I'm gonna say this once again, I, I, there's, you know, I don't, listen, is it my shortening attention span? Maybe, is it maybe that I'm trying to read three books a week? Maybe, but honestly, to your point, I think you can tell a hell of a story.

in 65 to 75 ,000 words. I've got a few here right now, I'm not gonna call out any names, because it'll sound like I'm bashing somebody, but that are clocking 95, 100, 120, and I'm like, it's too much of a commitment. You can get away with that if you're Larry McMurturing, you're writing an epic western. We're not writing Moby Dick here. These are crime stories, they should move fast. And I can't dance, I don't have a beat. But I do have a beat when it comes to writing.

I can feel the rhythm of a story. I can feel the beat. And I can know when I'm falling out of step, when I'm not matching the rhythm of the song I'm singing with my story. And that goes to that joke you used. That was not, the beat didn't work. It didn't have the right rhythm. And what I do now, I have a whole new system for writing that I developed, I fell into with my book Lost Hills, which is,

I write my books now as a script first. Not that my agent or anyone oversees, it's for me. I want to get the story out of my system right away and find out if it works. So I don't want to be finding my novel as I'm writing it. I want to get it all out of my system and then can look at it and say, all right, here's where it works. Here's where I have to make some adjustments. But it also means when I'm writing the prose, I'm not.

The Thriller Zone with David Temple (17:25.294)
worrying about my story. not even worrying about the dialogues. I already have it. I'm just now worrying about the rhythm and the description. I just last night around two in the morning, I have a new book coming out in October. It's a new Ebronin called Fallen Star. This is the novel in script form. I just finished it. It comes in at 302 pages. all the book is all here.

in script, all the dialogue and everything. And I know if it works or not, I know where I have to tighten up and whether the dialogue has the rhythm I want. So now what I'm essentially doing for the next few weeks, this is nightmare, I have to write this book in the shortest amount of time I've had to write a book in years, I'm essentially novelizing my own screenplay. But it allows me to give my books the pacing of a movie or a TV show, which is I'm going for. I want them just to rock it along and

doing it in script form allows me to make sure I have that pace and that energy and that forward momentum. All right, folks, listen to me very closely. You just got a fraction of a master class from a master on how to do it. Now, hold on before you think I'm blowing smoke up your skirt. My skirt? The fact that you the fact that you told me that is so what's the word not metaphysical.

inside full, no, that's not it, psychic, psychic maybe, because I was going to ask you this very thing. I was gonna ask you closer to the close of the show when I do the whole thing about best running device. Here's why. I personally love to write screenplays. I don't know that I'm any good at it. It doesn't matter that I'm any good at it, but I like, to your point, I like to just puke it out.

Get it out because I know that I know that the dialogue has a certain rhythm and a feel and you know when it works the extraneous they're in the car. They're driving here all that stuff It'll kind of take care of itself and I think people spend maybe all of us do this too much time with that direction So I love the fact that you're breaking this down because that is so good now I think i've told this on your show before in the maybe i'm listening now

The Thriller Zone with David Temple (19:44.096)
even doing this is I want my writing to disappear. Yeah. I'm not one of those writers where I want you to go, my God, this the way he described this tree is amazing. I've never thought about trees in this way before. I'll never look at trees this way again. Now that I've had his poetic vision of a tree, I want my my feeling is if my writing draws attention to itself in the in the descriptions, it's pulling you out and making you remember you're reading a book. So.

What I try to do is to limit my authorial voice to the first few paragraphs of the book to set the scene. And then if I have something funny or clever I want to say, I try to put it in a character's mouth. And if I can't put it a character's mouth, I don't say it. Which means a lot of, know, my, what I think are my really cleverest things or great insights get that scrapped. But I also just want enough description to give you a sense of place so you can color it in yourself.

I don't want to belabor something. And I learned this from Janet Ivanovich. When I was writing with her, I would write what I thought was a really tight scene where I would describe Paris or Macau or whatever international location our book was taking place in and the place our characters were in. I thought I would get down to the bone. And she would cut two pages of my crap and circle three lines that I wrote and leave that.

She was right. Those three lines said it all. I did not need everything else. So that's what I try to do. I try to get it down to the key observation, the key detail about a person or a place that will make it come alive for the reader. And that's one big benefit of writing it in script form, because when you write a script, you're just saying, house day, and you're imparting just the material that the production designer, location manager, or director needs to know. Well, that's also all the reader needs to know.

I have to in slightly more flowery prose than I would in a script. But in a way, doing it as a script first makes me more disciplined and allows me to get as streamlined and tight as I possibly can in my prose surrounding the dialogue. So what's interesting, and if I'm hearing you correctly, you're getting down the beats in the conversation, which is essential, and then you go back and you expand, let the seams out, if you will, later.

The Thriller Zone with David Temple (22:06.912)
So it sounds like, well, geez, David, Lee, that sounds like a lot of extra work. However, I'm thinking, no, that's exactly, that's what I'm getting to. What I think it is if you beat it out, that's what I call it, and then you go back and take the luxury of, luxury of filling in the blanks, I think you've saved yourself a ton of time. Well, I don't have it here in front of me, but I outline my books. I don't do extensive outlines. I do what we call on television, a beat sheet.

And I just have the major beats of the book. Here's... You don't have a beat sheet for this? I do. It's not sitting here, but... All right, but what? We're going to take a short break and when we come back, would you share that with us? I don't know if I can dig it up. It's in a box in my closet back there. I have a book I wrote called Successful Television Writing, and I put some beat sheets in there. And that book is available on Amazon. And I co -wrote the book with my then television writing partner, William Rabkin.

It's still used in classrooms to this day. those beat sheets are more detailed because those are the beat sheets. have to turn into the network and studio to get the green light, to write a script. But for myself, I just do, know, int house day, the two detectives walk in, here's what they see. Here's what they feel. Here's the key clue I need to get across and, or the key emotional beat. And I move on. So is that line one and how long would that take you? A couple of sentences, right?

It sort of looks like a script without the dialogue. Okay, got it. A beat sheet is just the location and then a paragraph that explains here's what happens in the scene. And for me, it's the central conflict of the scene, the key clue or emotional beat that I need to get across. And I might put the clue in boldface and the emotional beat in italics just to underscore it. And this way,

I'm not discovering the mystery and the clues as I go along. It's there. Now I don't lavishly stick to my outlines. I call them living outlines because my outlines, I rewrite them as I write the book. And I finish my outlines around the time, a week or two before the book is done because I keep making changes as I go and having to revise my outline to take into account the changes I'm making. I say the book, I do that in a script too. I have the outline there and I'm

The Thriller Zone with David Temple (24:31.682)
writing the script to match the outline, I'm making the changes. But now, as I get down to the prose version of the book, I've made all the big decisions. I can just relax now for the next few weeks and concentrate on the writing, on honing, on editing. So this sounds very self -serving and I apologize for this. When I turn my books in, they are very clean. Very little work that has to be done. The developmental editor,

can do her job in a few days. I might have to rewrite a scene or fix one mild thing, but it's a very fast process, which also means that I can do books on a shorter schedule than other authors, which allows me to have two books out a year. Well, I just going to say this is exactly how you are able to do more than just one book a year. I hear this and I'm not, this is no knock on anybody, but I hear people talking about, I like to do one book a year. And I'm like,

I look at Lee Goldberg, Lee does two, maybe three books a year. And I'm like, yeah. So here's my point. If you're doing step one, beat it out. Step two, going back and adding the pros. And you already know that it's pretty clean for the developmental editor. And she hands it back. Your work is even tighter, faster, looser to be able to complete it. So you can do more.

I won't bore you with all the details of publishing schedules because they can be really weird. Like I had a 15 month period writing nothing out even though I had three books that I had written. And they all came out as you may recall within weeks of each other in 2023. I had three books out within four weeks of each other. I never want to do that again. No. But sometimes due to publishing issues and I won't bore you with all the details, I'll have to write a book in 90 days. And having this process makes it very easy to do because I will do the beat sheet.

over a weekend, I'll have my story, I can write the script in two weeks, and then once I have the script, then I can spend the rest of the time writing the book, know, writing the prose and doing the refining of the editing. So for me, the script actually makes everything so much faster. And I don't spend a lot of time in the script worrying about whether I've gotten it right. If I have bad dialogue, I'll fix it later. I just...

The Thriller Zone with David Temple (26:50.178)
People call it the vomit draft, but mine isn't because I do go back and revise, but I don't belabor anything, so I just want to get the script done. So I'll have a line that says, talk more about Eve's feelings in the book, or here's where you put all the forensic shit. And I won't put it there, I'll just say, here's the forensic shit. Add cool fire stuff later. I'll put that in, I have it, but I'm not going to slow down the script process to put that all in. That's something.

that's time intensive for me to take the exposition about arson investigation or the forensics and boil them down to something simple and entertaining so they don't read like a textbook. That takes work and to make it seem casual and fast is something I can then take time on once I've already written the script version. And you'll do that sometimes by putting the explanation in the character's mouth. wait. Yeah, when other times you might sprinkle it

like, I'm not going to be able to come up with anything this fast. I'm too brain dead, but let's say for instance, it has to do with the way an accelerant takes off. You might drop just enough of a an innocuous fact that is not conversation based about the accelerant. And yet you'll have them sharper Walker and whomever come back and go.

You know, well, if you know, let that case we did such and such remember how that accelerant took off and then and then you'll do enough of an explanation that'll make me go, geez, I didn't know. You'll make me think about something. And then you get back to it. Now, here's a here's a here's a comment that I wondered. And I put a quote, I put a word said, really? There were no Velcro

Plasps anywhere on their uniforms or on the bags they carried because the static electricity that the fasteners could spark might ignite flammable gases or explosives now you laid that out and an exposition without conversation and I've made me go Wait a minute. Is that does that actually happen? So it does doesn't it right? What I try to do ideally I don't want to do it. I just did there where I give you a fact in prose I think

The Thriller Zone with David Temple (29:02.252)
I try to have it come out in dialogue if it's that important. But there I just thought it was not something to ever talk about. So I just put it in a quick, just the facts map line. But I do have them later unbuttoning something. I make reference to it later in the book. What I try to do is I try to do it, and I don't have the books here, I put them away, but I have a ton of reference books on arson investigation. And I read them and I do more research than is necessary.

And then I set them aside and I just write. And I'm hoping that what I've learned will come out organically in the dialogue without me shining a light on it. And if that happens, if it comes out in casual conversation, not like, know, I can't stand watching criminal minds and CSI where the characters are telling each other stuff they already know. Well, as you know, the such and such test delivers this material. I want to have it.

come out naturally what they say and do. And if I've missed a point I need to bring up, like maybe the Velcro, or I just think it's interesting, I will sneak it in and prose. But I try to avoid that whenever possible. It's so funny. So inside the span of one chapter, and I think it is a chapter, it's not a prologue, yeah, it's in a chapter, I've now pointed out two things, one that I really loved and the other that I never knew, and both of them you're not particularly happy with. You're like, I should've.

You should have been. I'm OK with the Velcro. OK, OK. But but I'm still bugged by that joke about the certified meeting rooms. But that's it. I'm easy on myself. It's you're allowed to make mistakes. And I'm not a perfectionist. You could you could tweak things forever. I just I said it's good enough and I send it out. And part of the problem, I think, when I get the galleys of my books is I'm usually in the middle of writing another one. So I want to get through

proofing that galley as fast as I can. And my guess is if I looked at that joke and there was an issue, I would probably thought it's good enough because I got other stuff I need to write and I probably was being lazy. I don't know. All right. Well, I know that I'm at the, I think I'm at the top of, I'm near the top of your list of galleys that as they come out. So I'm going to say to you with confidence that if perhaps a galley comes to me next time and I run across something that I think and listen to how

The Thriller Zone with David Temple (31:28.564)
Egotistical I am right here. time you get a galley, it's done. It's locked. By the time you get one those uncorrected proofs, the book is already finished. There's nothing to, if you find an error or whatever in that galley, the ship has sailed, it's hit the iceberg and already sunk. Okay. Well then you're just shot a hole straight through the sail of my boat. Cause I was going to say,

If I come across and I said, know, Lee, being the professional I am, that officially designated convention centers, I think you could shorten that up. Be a waste of time, right? Because you're being sent an uncorrected galley based on, I don't know what stage of the manuscript, because it takes them a long time to get these galleys produced, get them in the pipeline and all that. So by the time those galleys go out, the book is already locked. It's already sent to the printer. It's finished.

But that's also why they say don't quote the uncorrected galley in your reviews because the finished book is probably in some cases different. I don't think I corrected that joke, the finished book here, but I don't think I corrected that joke in the finished book. But there are some things I come across in the galley that I wish I could send a note to the reviewers saying, I fixed that. It's not there. All right. Well, one more quick.

No, I'm gonna save this. I'm gonna take a quick break because we have a brand new sponsor this month, so I'm gonna take a break and say a hi to those folks. But when we come back, there's a couple things we're gonna do off the top of my head. One is a, I'm gonna share a personal story of a conversation Lee and I had via email recently that really straightened my mind and I think it's gonna help my writer friends in a moment. And the second thing is, he's gonna explain to me,

A couple of little things in this story I had never heard of in my life and I want to make sure that they are actually true or if you're just having fun with me. So it's Lee Goldberg. We are sitting around here talking about here in season seven. Welcome. Ash's Never Lies. Stay with us. We'll be right back.

The Thriller Zone with David Temple (33:32.266)
And welcome back to the Thriller Zone. That conversation, that email you and I had. I remember you asked me about a book you wanted to write. It did so much for me, it, it not, it, it, and I'm going to repeat this. It opened my mind and clarified something really like crystal clear. And I knew that if I'd reached out to you, which I debated for quite some time, I'm like, I don't want to bother Lee. Lee's too busy. He got shit to do. But I'm like, he'll, he'll, he'll tell it to me straight. He won't, he won't.

You know candy -coat it and sure enough and you actually you said I was a doctor con there was an author whose book I rejected for my publishing company brash and I wrote a very blunt editorial letter about why I was rejecting it and I ran into him and he said, know, I got that letter and I hated your fucking guts like you son of a bitch But three weeks later, I realized you're absolutely right and no one else would have told me that but

You might think about being a little softer in these editorial letters. I said, well, know, when Joel Goldman and I started Brash Books and he retired and now it's just me, he would soften me. I would write an editorial letter and he would blunt the edges. But I come from the journalism world and we're taught not to have an emotional stake in we're writing. So your editor will cut your article, rearrange it, change your lead, or the article will be cut for space in the newspaper, whatever.

and you're writing on deadline and other writers will throw in stuff. So you have to be disassociated from your work and there's no time for coddling. It's same is true in TV. was the executive producer of Diagnosis Murder for many years and we'd get scripts and that script has to, it's Friday, the script is prepping Monday. I don't have time to say, to say the two scenes at the beginning of act one are pure exposition, they're boring as hell, fix them, try to add some character. You know, I just, or the scene.

All of Act Two is great, but you could lift up Act Two and put it in another show. Make it our show. Make it our characters. know, and I just don't have time. You know, but I was brought up that way, too. So I'm very blunt. when I'm blunt, I don't just say this is crap. I explain why it doesn't work or why it's a mistake. And frequently people will get pissed and some remain pissed. But most will come back and say, thank you. It's, know.

The Thriller Zone with David Temple (35:55.52)
Obviously you're a friend because you told me the truth instead of dancing around, which I had to tell you, writing a sequel to a book that bombed is a mistake. Don't do it. Hang on a second. I'll be right with you. I'll with you in a second. No, I'm kidding. All right. Save that juice because I'm coming right back with it. right. You could use that if you want. I might.

And we're back. It's the Thriller Zone Season 7. I'm David Temple. This is Lee Goldberg. We're talking about this tasty little book called Ashes Never Lie. Once again, he's a New York Times bestselling author. Number one, in fact. I have them on back of my shirt. Yeah, you should. It's such a good book. Thank you. And I think I said this before, but in case I didn't, I wanted to say anytime ever.

You have Sharp and Walker in the same room talking. I will read the book. That dialogue, that banter back and forth is so freaking delicious and entertaining. would read, I'm like, I don't care if there's a fire or murder. don't care. Just give me more of that. So kudos My philosophy in writing these books is readers come for the characters, not the mystery. I mean, the mystery has to be good.

But what they remember are the characters and the character moments. I I love the Rockford files. I couldn't tell you a single mystery from that series, but I could tell you a whole bunch of character moments that have stuck with me over the years. That's what I'm going for with these characters. I want you to like hanging out with them. So if you figure out who done it before they do, you'll just feel smart and not carry your lung for the ride. Right. And my favorite books, my favorite authors do that. I'm there to be with old friends, to spend time.

with these characters and if the mystery is good, that's great. But it's the people I'm back for. There is a book I want to reach for. Hang on a second. I meant to do this during our break and I didn't. I have I have my library, my small library broken into series, couple of my books, my research books, things that are just for me to read from my own pure pleasure. And then I have a category of these are the books that are coming up next and then next and so forth.

The Thriller Zone with David Temple (38:19.756)
But you might know this gal. Here's, here's a book I really like. Yeah, I've heard of her. I wish she'd finally break out on her own and stop writing on my coattails. Yeah, she does that. I find it lazy and really unprofessional. Yeah, whatever folks. Janet Ivanovich, Lee's good friend wrote a book, How I Write Secrets of a Best Selling Author. And two things I want to say, this is, it's an old book too. I really, I love it. It's, it's up there for me with On Writing by Stephen King.

This was done back in 2006 and it's got just a handful, a chock full of nutty goodness that you can use every single day. And it begs my question. And you're going to tell me already have one and I don't have it yet. Do you have a book like this? Yes. And it's the one that's successful television writing. I wrote a book called successful television writing, which is, I co -wrote it with William Rabkin. And it's our approach to writing for television.

But the same lessons that are in that book apply equally to, same lessons that are in that book about screenwriting apply equally to writing novels. I also like to refer people to Lawrence Bloch's Telling Lies for Fun and Profit and his book Writing the Novel. And I recommend those books to screenwriters as well because the same advice applies. All right, so are you telling me that successful television writing is your only

Not self -help. Inside scoop on how to write. Well, if you go to my website, leegoldberg .com, and you go to my blog, I have been posting advice about writing for 20 years. And you just have to look on one of the subject headings, like writing books or writing screenplays or writing a mystery. And you'll find a whole bunch of posts where I've talked about my process for plotting a mystery or my process for creating compelling characters.

Maybe someday I'll compile those into a book. Please do. Please do. And come down bomb the show and talk about it and I'll be the first one to buy one. Well, to be honest, the reason I haven't done it is it doesn't make a whole lot of financial sense for to do it. Successful television writing has been in print now for decades and keeps bringing back royalties, but I'd be better served using that time to write another novel. Got it.

The Thriller Zone with David Temple (40:40.31)
I'm sitting here looking at writing and folks bear with me for going off on the tension here. Writing the pilot, the streaming series. was done back in. That's Bill Rapkin's book. He's done two sequels to successful television writing. They're both fantastic. Writing the pilot and writing the pilot, the streaming series. Both books are excellent because the lessons he gives, he teaches there or passes along there apply to creating a series of books as well. How to come up with a compelling concept, characters that can generate

many stories, how to create a franchise that will continue to be compelling story after story. He does a remarkable job doing that and writing the pilot and writing the pilot, the streaming series. And I think I blurb both books as well. Okay, well, those were on my to buy list as soon as we get off the show. So folks, once again, leegoldberg .com, but we'll come back to that. All right, so.

As we were going into the break, I said that Lee and I had a conversation recently. was, just laying it out here. I'm a self published author. I haven't gotten any, you know, accolades and so forth and so on, but I just have been writing and I don't know if I told you this, Lee, I told myself this was maybe 10, 12.

13 years ago, I said, I'm going to, I'm one those guys that has to do the 10 ,000 hours. said, I'm going to write nine or 10, probably nine books, self -published just myself, just to make sure I knew how the machine worked. I'm going to, I'm going to know how to write the book and the blurb and the, and the layout and the cover and all that bullshit. And so that when I get to number 10 figured and I put in my 10 ,000 hours, thank you. what's his face. The minute I go to say it, can't think of it. then I'll be ready to go.

And so I reach out to my buddy Lee and I, I know Lee is a straight shooter and I go, Hey Lee, I have this, a series, detective patner rally. I'm thinking about doing a third book. What do you think about if I take that third book and go try to find an agent with it? And he proceeded to say something like this. I thought you were going read what I said. What I said was basically don't do it. Are you out of your mind?

The Thriller Zone with David Temple (42:52.116)
Why would you try to sell an agent on the third book in a series that nobody has read? No one's going to buy it. You should write something entirely new that does not have a record on Amazon that where it's what? You don't have to say it. No, it's not that bad. I'm saying no publisher is going to pick up a self -published series, the third book in a self -published series that hasn't achieved any success or critical acclaim. You're wasting your time.

Write a brand new thriller that stands alone or starts a new series. Pretend as if everything you self -published doesn't exist. Right. But in hearing what you just said, I'm going to give you, give your listeners, viewers another piece of advice. I think it is a huge mistake to do what you did. Do not spend 10 ,000 hours writing books that you self -publish as a way to learn how to be a novelist. Go ahead and write those 10 books. Don't self -publish them.

Don't. You never have a second opportunity to make a first impression. Once your books are out there, the reader doesn't know the difference between a self -published book and a real book. If they see a book that is not well done, that has mistakes, that, and I haven't seen your books. I'm not talking about your books in specific, but has an amateurish cover and poor copy editing and doesn't measure up. They won't be there when your first book is published by Penguin Putnam. Those books will still be out there. And it also undercuts you when you do submit your book.

to Penguin Putnam, because they'll go look at the 10 books you previously wrote and go, God, he's already been doing this for 10 years and readers have read this crap and don't want it. They'll say, you know what, if you want to publish this book, we have to do it under another name. So. Just because you can self -publish with a click doesn't mean you should self -publish with a click. Yes, we all now have the opportunity to be on the same shelf next to James Patterson and Lee Child, but you'd better be as good as James Patterson or Lee Child.

or you're screwed. I just think, yes, self -publishing has democratized the publishing industry, given a lot of people a chance to have their voices expressed who weren't getting their voices expressed before. And there are people who have had enormous success self -publishing, but the percentage you have is so infinitesimally small. And most of what self -publish is, and I'm not saying it's your book, is a tsunami of swill. And it turns readers off to

The Thriller Zone with David Temple (45:18.966)
self -published stuff because they get burned so many times. So they put a bag over his head. But I would if I were you, before you try to submit your book to any of your new book to any publisher, take down all of your self -published books, unpublish them so they don't exist. Can you actually do that? Yeah. I don't know you're KDP or what, but.

take them down. maybe used copies would still be there if there were some used copies, but you don't want a history of weak writing to follow you into your first book. Okay. Really folks. And then if your publisher, your new publisher loves what you wrote, they can say, do you have anything else? You can show them some of the stuff and acknowledge, know, I self -published this stuff a few years ago. Maybe I could rewrite it. We could do something else and relaunch it.

But if I were you, I would just look at those 10 books. See, we've all written, all of us who are published authors, we've all written those same 10 books. We didn't self -publish them because self -publishing didn't exist. They're in our drawer and we are so thankful they're in the drawer because we don't want the world to see them. And an author does not need to learn how to do covers and blurbs and that stuff because your publisher's doing that for you. And who have you learned it from? Yourself.

Who told you whether it was a good blurb or a bad blurb or a good cover or a bad cover? You made that decision on your own. You didn't make it based on talking to people in book marketing or booksellers or Amazon to find what really works on the platform and what doesn't.

Self -publishing is like a doctor saying, I want to be a surgeon, so I'm going to operate on some of my neighbors and see how that works out. Yeah, they may be walking around looking a little grotesque and everything, but that's okay because my next surgery is going to be fantastic. You don't want those mutants you operated on before showing up at your first real surgery. Okay, well, this has been both educational and slightly humbling. Well, next time I'll be blunt. I won't sure -cut it the way I just did. And that's okay.

The Thriller Zone with David Temple (47:28.598)
I'm okay with that, Mr. Goldberg. No, that is really good advice. And I see, thought I was being smart by doing a little self -education, and now I feel a little silly that I'd spent all that time and energy and money, and I probably sold a few hundred copies and that's about it. So. But there are people, know, Frieda McFadden and others who have self -published who will tell you, that guy you had on, that pompous fat guy who is lecturing you.

He doesn't know anything. I've made $10 million self -publishing. I learned so much and I don't need publishers because I'm so wealthy and so successful. Yes, there are those authors out there, but there are also people who've won the lottery out there too. And I would argue they are extreme outliers. Most of us just want a simple middle of the road writing career that allows you to make a living as a writer.

and to sell some books. We don't all aspire or can ever be Michael Connolly or Lee Child or Janet Ivanovich. And you don't want to put your education, your mistakes, your screwing around out there in the marketplace. You don't want that to be the thing you're judged on. You want readers to judge you on your very best work. As a result of all that years of practice. Superb advice. Thank you, Uncle Lee. I appreciate that.

And it did. And like I said, like I told you before we went on the show and folks, I'm telling you this straight up. I went to Lee cause I knew Lee was a straight shooter and he'd tell me the truth. And there's a part of me that didn't want to cause I didn't want to waste his time. But I thought there's only very few people that I could come straight to and go, Lee, can you give me three minutes of your time? And he did just that and I am forever grateful. And it has changed the way I think about some things. So thank you. Well, I did preface my email to you saying I wouldn't be much of a friend. You did.

blue smoke up your butt. You did. I'm going to be honest, I don't want to hurt your feelings. I know what I'm about to say will be hurtful and I don't mean it to be. Here's my advice. Yeah. And it doesn't mean I'm right. It's just my advice. You take it or leave it. But I don't think it's, I don't think you're doing friends or actually even strangers a service when they ask you for your advice and you lie. I'll give you another example. I was at a conference in Myrtle beach and

The Thriller Zone with David Temple (49:54.434)
was speaking to some people who wanted to write for television. And they said, do we have to be in LA to be in the television business? And I said, yes. I can't be in the television business in Myrtle Beach? No. Television shows are made in Los Angeles. have to be there for the meetings. No, that's changed to some degree since I did that. know, in the pandemic, we now have Zoom and the world has changed. Back then, no, you can't have a TV career and live in Myrtle Beach. It's not gonna happen. And the organizer's like, you can't say that.

You're killing their hopes and dreams. I'm giving them realism. I mean, a realistic view. What is the point of me lying to them about what their chances are? Right. I I've had that happen to me before where they'll, it actually happened about your con. Someone asked me some question on a panel, I can't remember what was, and I told the truth. And the moderator was like, why did you have to be so dark? I said, I'm not being dark. I'm saying exactly the truth. This is what it takes to get published. mean, and the audience was

was with me on that. said, no, we wanted the real answer. You know, I don't think our job as authors when we are asked these questions or we're on panels is to tell the aspiring writer what they want to hear. It's to tell them something that will actually get them forward in the industry, to allow them to get published or to get produced, not to make them feel better about themselves and their chances. No, 100%. I want you to save me time and energy. Don't blow smoke up my skirt.

All Well, I'm going to move on to something here. That is all fabulous. I wanted to say that, couple of the things we have covered, but I'm going to keep going. We're still talking about ashes. Never lie. because I'm a nut for specifics or someone called the secret sauce. was looking at your books. Ashes never lie. I went back to Malibu burning, which I loved. As you know, we spoke about it the last time we spoke last year and I'm not even talking about Eve Ronan series or the Ian Ludlow series or Calico for instance, which I love the

Western theme book, but here's what I wanted to say. There is, and I made a note here in the back that, and I'm one of those idiots. I count how many lines. So it's 30, 35 lines. Good. There's good spacing. These are all tiny little things that people might say, dude, I don't give a shit about that. But I'm like, you should, because these are things that Lee's going to help me understand why it works. Good spacing, best good font.

The Thriller Zone with David Temple (52:14.132)
Short chapters, tons of dialogue, plenty of humor, for me makes a perfect combination. Because there is something about your books, Lee, I cannot put my finger on it. And I pulled out a handful of books when I was doing this analysis. And I go, there's something about Lee's books. It's the way it lays out. It's the white space. It's the dialogue. It's what you said earlier. And that's when you said it earlier, I went, that's what it is. He makes the writing disappear.

And that's what I'm so fascinated by your, not only your style, but this is, and I use this phrase a lot, but I really mean it, master class in how to just make the story move. Yeah, it's - about secret sauce, you're talking about there about how the words look on the page. I look at my screen and I look at my screen, I see a big block of words. I go, that would turn me off as a reader.

I have got to break that up. I have to find a way to give that more air, more space. I don't want a paragraph that fills an entire page. I don't want a paragraph that fills a half a page. I actually look at my manuscript and ask myself, how is that going to look in print? And then when I get the formatted galley, if it turns out that I have this giant chunk of dialogue or this giant chunk of prose, I will rewrite it on the galley.

to break it up, to make it have more air, to make it breathe, so it will move faster. But also, I want a little more white on the page. I think it is air, it's space, it's sunlight. I know it's crazy, but I actually pay attention to what you're talking about. I want it to look appealing on the page or on the Kindle, so it pulls the reader in. Instead of them looking at it God, do want to slog through that giant paragraph?

There's some big words in there. Do I need to have a dictionary with me too? So I also am careful about using, and Janet taught me this as well. I use the simplest word for something. don't say a cacophony. I say it's noisy. I use simple phrases. And if I can say something short, the more simple and short I can make something, I do. Even if means I cut something I think is really clever or shows what a

The Thriller Zone with David Temple (54:32.876)
wonderful writer I am. I hate it when I read a book and I'm going I just know the author was smiling when he wrote that. So proud of himself for that brilliant description. Yeah, it's wonderful, but we could have lived without it. Now it's funny, two people that popped into my head and you know the both of them and they're great fantastic writers and have become friends of mine over the years and two different things. Meg Gardner has a prolific

Jesus, I can't think of the sentence that the word vocabulary. God. She has a, she, she has a word. know. I know. It's my hormones. She has a fantastic vocabulary and she will use words. She's the one of the only people I have to actually have a dictionary. Now she's the only person Meg, if you're listening, this is not a bash whatsoever.

I actually look forward to it because I learn something and I take those words and I add them to my vernacular, right? However, most times to your exact point, I'm reading, I'm like, why do you have to say cacophony? Why can't you just say it's noisy, right? Because of this one thing. And you're gonna know this better than anybody because you wrote for television. If you take me out of this story, much like if I go to a movie and you...

and I'm watching the screen and you take me out because it's too much you're droning on about some bullshit. I'm like, what time is it? maybe I do need some more popcorn, et cetera. Right. Exposition is death. I don't want exposition, but I also don't want to pull people out of the book. I don't want them to suddenly realize the reading. want them to get so lost in what they're doing there for getting their reading. That's just like they're in a dream. So they're kind of jarred out of it. And I also think about the audio book. How's this going to sound when it's red?

And so that's all part of it. I want to capture the feeling of watching a TV show or reading a book, excuse me, watching a TV show or watching a movie when they're reading my book so that they get that same sort of cinematic experience, which is maybe one reason why it serves me so well to write my books as scripts first, because I make sure they have that cinematic quality that the scenes are driven by action and dialogue and not prose.

The Thriller Zone with David Temple (56:52.602)
that there's conflict, that I'm starting a scene sometimes in the middle rather than the beginning so I have more momentum. If it doesn't work in a script, it's not gonna work in a book. I don't wanna be inside someone's head in my books. I want them to be revealing themselves in what they say and do and how they confront obstacles to their goals.

Since we are in such a comfortable safe space of honesty and forthrightness, I do want to ask you a question. Now, I know you have written, you've written for television, you've written for the big guys, your books are now run through Thomas and Mercer, which is Amazon, which, is becoming, I'd love to know your opinion on this. mean, not, not,

Thomas and Mercer specifically, but Amazon in general, because they have so many different branches. Do you think that they will replace or get pretty close to replacing what we have come to know as the big five or whatever number you want to insert? There'll always be these two different worlds and they'll just be part. Yeah. But I will say this, and I'm not saying it just because I'm under contract with them at the moment, but working with Amazon has been the best publishing experience of my life. They love.

books, they treat authors extraordinarily well, and there's so much that the Big Five can learn from the way Amazon deals with authors. And then, to be fair, the Big Five have absorbed some of the great things that Amazon does for authors. I have the contracts. You don't need to be a lawyer to read them. They're very simple. You get your royalties every single month directly into your checking account. You're not waiting for quarterly reports and holds on returns and all this stuff.

produce beautiful hardcovers and paperbacks. If you take the dust jacket off any of my hardcovers, the boards of the books have artwork on them. They're beautiful. They take real pride in the books they sell and they're experts at marketing. The people who are editing these books, they've come from the publishing world of New York and the big five. They really know the genre, they love literature, they love writing.

The Thriller Zone with David Temple (59:11.864)
They went to Amazon and said, how could we have the best possible publishing experience for ourselves and for authors? And they created an experience that, there are very few authors I think that will say they were treated badly or had a bad experience with Amazon. That said, there are authors who are dropped by Amazon who have numbers that would make other publishers have parades down Fifth Avenue, but they all have different metrics and how they measure success and Amazon has their own metrics.

The reason I ask it, I hear so, you know, I'm, I'm privy thanks to this show and it's now seventh season. I am privy to seven years or just it was like survivor. I survivor is on season 48, but it hasn't been on the air 48 years. you have several seasons within a year? have two seasons each year. Okay. Well, there you go. So first six months, a second, six months. It's just the way I could. have done one season per year. Sure.

But that's long, dude. many episodes per season? Well, it's generally four per month. So four times six, 24. OK. Not bad, right? And do you differentiate the seasons with a different main title sequence, different fonts, so that we have our box set of curler zones. can tell which was which season. I shift it just incrementally each one. So I don't want to lose the brand. Thank you for asking.

but I want to add a little fresh coat of paint. the is different than previous seasons. Is this because you've built a new set or you've moved or your financial situations changed? I have moved due to a financial situation and have created a new backdrop, which is a different room. There you go. Yeah. I used to be in a different house. whole basement thing with the, with the posters from the 1980s with Farrah Fawcett.

looking at me while I was being interviewed by you. I got rid of that. Yeah, got, I got rid of that. So I had these, I lost my thought now, these conversations from different people, go, you should only go this way. Other people go, you should only go this way. And I have watched and observed this movement now for seven seasons. And I wonder how much will it continue?

The Thriller Zone with David Temple (01:01:31.906)
to shift and slide and diminish or grow? How much will one take over the next? And I'm just asking this is Lee's pure opinion. This is just Lee's opinion. Well, I don't think Amazon is gonna take over the publishing industry. think what's changing is retail, brick and mortar. I don't know that people are buying as many physical books anymore and there are fewer, fewer.

I will look at Costco. They've now considered books seasonal items. I know crazy items. What books are for Thanksgiving and Christmas and Easter only. That's ridiculous. Yes. And there's a very small number of books at Walmart and they're always going to be the big name authors. So I think more and more readers are buying books that are e -books and not just to use on the Kindle. mean, Amazon recently made a change. say recently, I think it's been a year or two now.

where they're now using the same digital format as every other ebook platform. used to be every other ebook platform was EPUB and Amazon used something called Moby. They even changed the acronym to something like AZB. I can't remember what it was, they had their own, sort of Tesla having their own chargers that are different from, but now they've democratized it. So every ebook is an EPUB.

I think more and more readers are finding their books on, whether it's indie bound or independent bookstore sites, because it's easier to carry books around on a digital device. you don't do that, do you? I do. I mean, I love being able to take a thousand books with me on a trip and read whatever I want rather than having to pick the books I want and then have to lug them back home. On the other hand, I can't really turn my, well I could, I don't have anything embarrassing. I'm going to shift my camera here so you can see.

You can't see it. I have this, there it is, a giant bookcase full Holy Bolly. Books. That's just one of them. I have several in this office. Yeah. If I like a book that I'm reading digitally, I will buy the hardcover and I'll try to buy it signed. Right. Because I want to own a book that I love. Or I'll buy a book in hardcover and not read it in hardcover and read it digitally so I don't hurt the hardcover. So I'm still -

The Thriller Zone with David Temple (01:03:55.608)
There's only a fraction, what I showed you, only a fraction of the books I have. have, I mean, think safe to say thousands of books and hundreds of them signed. They're all over the house. I have fiction, I have reference books, I have more in boxes in the garage. But I think I'm an outlier. I think most people don't care about owning bookshelves of books anymore. I think they're quite happy just having them on an e -reader. Well, now you did not ask my opinion, but I'm going to throw you one.

I'm one of those guys that there is something about sitting down with a Lee Goldberg book and hold it in my hands. I know I'm old fashioned and old so I can do this and I enjoy that. Now I grew up, you've probably heard me say this before, I would never do, I would never highlight or write. My mother would look at me go, son, what are you doing? Disgracing that book. It's fine piece of property. You should save that for future. However, this is how I make my notes so that I am most efficient with you.

It doesn't change anything for me because here's what I'll do. I'll go back later when I go, if I'm having a little hitch in my giddy up, I'll go, what would Lee, how would Lee handle this? And I might go back to one of your books and go, all right, how did he do that dialogue there? And how did he break that down? You just passed along the biggest piece of advice that I give to writers. Read. if you read something that makes you laugh out loud, go back and ask yourself, how did the author do it?

If you read something that scares the crap out of you, go back and ask yourself, how did he use words to scare the crap out of me? If the writer made you cry, how? How? Go back and analyze it. It's right there in front of you. The writer's not hiding anything. All of his technique, all of his secrets, all of his tricks are right there for you to see. By the same token, if you read a book that bores you to death,

or you find unbelievable or makes you want to hurl it across the room, also go back and ask yourself why. Where did the reader, where did the author lose me? At what point did I decide I don't care? At what point did I not believe the characters of the story? Where did he do it? What was his mistake and how do I avoid the mistake? Also, if you read a book that you love and you're an author, you finish it, you should then go back and outline the whole book.

The Thriller Zone with David Temple (01:06:21.086)
Ooh, that's a great edge. How could he do it? Write down every scene, every clue, every emotional beat, and you'll have a beat sheet of that book. And you can go, now I see it. Now I see the blueprint. and now you have an example for your next book. The great thing about writing is how it's done. The secret sauce, as you call it, isn't a secret at all. No, all right there in black and white.

You just have to take the time to take it apart. Just go through it and analyze it. Who is the hero? Why do I like the hero? Why don't I like the hero? What works and what doesn't work? But is it just as important to outline a book that failed? Why didn't it work? And you beat it out and you look at go, well, there's this three coincidences and there's this clue that's never paid off and this and that. he found this out off camera, so I never had a chance.

That's not fair. I felt left out. You can actually go granular and figure out why the book failed and not make those mistakes either. Same is true to a lesser degree because you don't have the script in front of you, but on television, if you watched a show that really moved you or scared you, you can go back and look at it and go, okay, what was it about the dialogue, the scene construction? But then you can also look at what did the director do?

Yes. does he force my perspective and highlight certain things? You know, there's a lot in a TV show, there's a lot that's that the writer doesn't bring to it, that the actors in the way they approach the material or the director or the way he shoots it or lights it, or even the location and how the set is designed will generate emotion or humor or whatever. But the great thing about telling stories is the secret sauce is not secret. Right. You don't need to watch an interview with me pontificating and offending my interviewer.

You can find it out for yourself. You know, there's two books that popped into my mind when you were talking about that, that I do this with New Country for Old Men. No Country for Old Men, right? Batman, whatever. I think it was. Point being, fantastic movie. Great story. Cormac McCarthy. I went back, I've watched it, I don't know, six or eight times now, and I go, why does it work and why does it always work? Sure, it's great actors. Sure, it's great cinematographer. But if you look at the way the thing beats,

The Thriller Zone with David Temple (01:08:46.71)
moves and how little they say and It's in the brevity There's two things first of all, you're not beating me over the head spoon feeding me Number two, you're allowing me to use my own imagination This is what I think about with your books and other books where you don't tell me every single solid I don't need to know how many grains you're in the bullet Just tell me that he shot him and he killed him, right? Not taking anything away from that

But that's a point. And the other one is Jason Bourne. And I go, why have my wife and I watched the entire Jason Bourne series no less, no less than 30 times? Every time it comes on, we'll go watch it. and those movies on DVD. I can watch them any time I want. Yet if I'm on watching television and I catch a Bourne identity moment, I sit with it for the rest of the movie.

I don't have to, could turn it off and pull my DVD down at any point, but I find it physically impossible to turn away from a Bourne movie. It's so well done. And this is my point. What is it, Lee, what is it that makes it? Sure, Matt Damon is fantastic as Jason Bourne. Sure, it's chock full of great actors. Sure, the cinematography is constantly moving at a breakneck speed.

But a lot of movies do all those things, but there's something about that series that is just so tight. is it? It is all those things you said, but it comes down to Jason Bourne. He gets hit in the face. It hurts. Yeah. He's not. Yes, he's a Superman, but he's not perfect. He's got serious emotional mental issues. He's an every man with superhuman abilities to try to understand why do I have these superhuman abilities?

he pulls us in because even though we aren't superhuman, we can imagine what it's like to suddenly wake up one morning and discover, holy crap, I can beat up three guys with a popsicle stick. How did that happen? And he's on the run. And so we know that if he falls off a building, it's going to hurt and he's going to be limping. I cannot, I have a big failing. I can't stand superhero movies. I am so freaking bored with guys throwing buses at each other and.

The Thriller Zone with David Temple (01:11:06.03)
punching people through buildings and I just don't care. there's all these thousands of people getting killed while these superheroes are throwing themselves through buildings and stuff. To me, it's ridiculous they're wearing these capes. Why can't they be dressed like me and do the same stuff? Do they really have to have a cape and a giant ass? They could still throw a bus at someone and wear a polo shirt. So it's it's ridiculous. I can't get into it. By the same token though, I absolutely love James Bond movies. There it's wish fulfillment.

You want to be James Bond. You don't want to be Captain Freak in America in those tights, throwing stuff around, but you all want to be James Bond. the girl, drive the car. Yeah. And we all love Dirty Harry because he does all the things we couldn't do because we're morally and politically correct. Yeah. But I'll get back to something you did not ask me. You talking about what we learned from readers. Yes. When I was a kid and I wanted to be a writer, I would

deconstruct Larry McMurtry's books and I deconstructed Gregory McDonald's Fletch novels and I deconstructed Elmore Leonard's books and George V. Higgins and I came to a realization that the books that impacted me the most had humor in them. I don't mean jokes, which is another reason why I keep bouncing over that line about the meeting room. I think humor humanizes characters. It makes you like them.

Because even in life, and I'm sure when you were going through your prostate cancer, as horrible as it was, there were moments of humor. The darkest moments of my life, there's always been humor. I think it allows us to invest in characters in a way that you don't otherwise do. So if you look at Larry McBritry's books, they're filled with heartache and tragedy and sorrow, but equal amounts of humor. You look at Elmore Leonard, he has these loathsome bad guys, but they're funny.

Yes. They all have a sense of humor about themselves or the world they're in. You look at George V. Higgins, his dialogue snaps and it's funny. You look at The Sopranos. Show is really dark. It was also very, very funny. Pine Barrens, perhaps their most famous episode, is a riot. mean, but it's also very dark and violent. So I knew if I wanted to draw in readers, if I wanted to write books that had characters that people cared about, I would have to have humor.

The Thriller Zone with David Temple (01:13:33.684)
I find that if I read a book that's humorless, it doesn't feel real to me. can't tie into it. That there isn't a single moment of levity. I won't mention authors, but there are authors who write these books that are unremittingly dark and bleak and you just want to take your own life while you're reading them. I just, I can't get into them. I just don't believe that's the real world. It's as fake to me as a superhero movie. It's so fascinating though, what

ticks makes us tick and what gets us going and you said something a second ago and it made me think and I'm not I would never Say the name or the book if you were to ask me if you and I were sitting around having an arnie palmer somewhere And just kicking it you'd you'd probably come around to ask me Dude, you read so many books you talk to so many people. Is there anybody out there or or or a

flavor or a genre that you've just gotten sick to death off and I'd go, yeah, you got a couple of hours and, or is there a pet peeve you got? I'm like, yeah. How about starting out a book with so much minutiae of detail that I, that I, I'm starting to flip forward and going, how long does this chapter last? if it goes any more than another page, I will not finish this book. If you want to know my pet peeves,

Yeah, please. What I I look for in writing or it's more writing advice. Go to Brash -books .com backslash about Brash -books .com backslash about. And on the about page, we have our submission guidelines, what we want to see and what we don't want to see. you shared this with me. And folks listen to this real close. Go for it. And I lay out, you I don't want to read another serial killer book. You know, I.

There have been 300 episodes of Criminal Minds and I guarantee you that you're not the first person to think of a serial killer killing nuns or a serial killer killing prostitutes. And if I read one more Sherlock Holmes pastiche where his mouse is solving crimes and his maid is solving crimes and his aunt's second cousin, twice removed, is solving crimes, I will kill myself. And I said I don't want to read a book where it begins with a woman or a child being horrifically tortured. Who finds that entertaining?

The Thriller Zone with David Temple (01:15:54.614)
certainly not women who make up the majority of crime novel readers. So I go through my whole, if you're going to write another serial killer book, you better be reinventing the genre. If you're going to write another private eye book, it better be not another private eye with a dark past who's got an addiction and a bottle of booze in his drawer and a friend on the force who kind of likes him, but kind of hates him. We've seen that to death. I talk a lot or,

Joel and I, we wrote that up. What we were looking for was unique characters, a strong voice, a fresh, brash approach to fiction. And I look for that even in the books I read for fun. I wanna read something that is fresh and new. I mean, also I want the familiar. I wanna see Harry Bosch. I wanna see the Lincoln lawyer doing what they do. I wanna see Stephanie Plumb being Stephanie Plumb. And Reacher being Reacher. Those are different. Those are...

franchises. are experiences you go back again and again because you want that same experience. But I don't want to read someone else doing Reacher or someone else doing Harry Bosch. That's why when I did Eve Ronin, I wouldn't do a police procedural unless I could come up with a character and a franchise, a concept that hadn't been done before. Same thing with Ashes Never Lie. I haven't read any books about arson investigators.

And I certainly haven't read any books about arson investigators where one is a season pro and the other guy is a U S marshal who's only taking the job to save his marriage. Where the U S marshal could be a surrogate for us learning about what arson investigation is all about. You know, I want to take a familiar genre and find a new angle into it, or I don't bother doing it. And I think that is the exact reason that I love this particular series with Walker and Sharp.

because of that very reason I go, Lee has taken the genre, which pleases me check. He's brought in two guys that are ill matched. I like that. Different polar check. He injects it with humor because we're all just semi broken trying to get through this crazy mess anyway. Check.

The Thriller Zone with David Temple (01:18:13.566)
And so kudos to you for Ashes Never Lie. Please bring more of that. And folks, go back to look at Brash. I'm sitting here looking at it right now. And I would read it except he just bullet, Lee just bullet pointed everything for me. And it's absolutely perfect because going back to that conversation that Lee and I had right after we came back from break, I stopped right then came here and read this.

And I go, Lee is 100 % right. I'm not saying you're 100 % right about everything. I'm not saying you're a frigging genius, but you actually did say I was a genius. Okay. You are a genius. Masterclass and handsome and very charming. You're brilliant. Brilliant. Always brilliant. I wrote it down. It's going to the back of my next book. Okay, good. Yeah. I'm looking for my blurb on your next book, by the way. And so I'm looking at all this and I'm like, this really is absolutely true. I don't care who you are, where you're coming from, what you're doing.

This is rock solid advice. And it reminds me of this. And with this, I begin to close. I remember it was 2019 Thriller Fest, my first one. Went out to New York, sat down, did that whole dating, pitch fest, speed date, whatever the fuck it's called. And I'm sitting down talking to, think I can use his name because he gave me a really good lesson. Tony Eldridge, the guy who produced the equalizers.

Isn't that the author's name? His wife is Tony? He's Dreyf Eldredge. No, he's Tony. She's Tori. Tori. Honest mistake, then. Yeah, easy. So I'm sitting there pitching the, actually the book that you and I had referred about and you said, do not write that third book, blah, blah, blah. And I'm pitching, I'm all proud of myself.

Cause I got the thing nailed, got my elevator pitch right down to 2 .3 minutes, et cetera, fill in the blank. I'm pitching it. He's looking at me like this. He's, he's, he's 20 seconds into it and he's doing this. What time is it? When's lunch break? And I knew I'd lost him. So I went through it. I didn't let that rattle me. Been in bigger pressure points than this. Finished it. And he said, well, thank you for your time. I'm like, so you didn't like it. He goes, no, no, not really. Not interested whatsoever. I'm like,

The Thriller Zone with David Temple (01:20:27.598)
Are you friends of Lee Goldberg? No kidding. And I said, why is that? He goes, well, are you a detective? No. Are you a cop? No. Do you have any family to copper detective? No. Have you ever been associated or even educated? No. Well, then you're not writing what you know. And he said, and besides it's, it's a female detective. Big deal. got, I got Michael Conley. He's already been there done it and he's doing it prolifically. So I'm not interested. And I was.

Okay, stinging just a little bit and I started to walk away and I said, well, he goes, well, hang on a second day because he could see I was kind of beat down. goes, well, what have you, what are, what have you done? I said, well, I spent my first, you know, 25 years of my career, you know, radio DJ. He goes, well, why don't you write about that? And I turned to him and I said, well, who wants to read that? And he goes, I'd buy that right now.

So I started working on that book. In writing what you know, I've never been a person investigator. I've never been a 25 -year -old homicide detective. I've never been a doctor or a werewolf or a lifeguard or an astronaut or piloted a submarine in the future. But I've written about all those things. I don't believe in the advice, write what you know. I believe in writing what you're passionate about, writing about what excites you, what you'd want to read.

most people who've written private novels have never been private eyes. I don't think Raymond Chandler worked as a private eye. Dash, don't think so. Robert B. Parker certainly didn't. Not all of us have to be Kathy Rice to write about what we're into. Michael Conley was a crime reporter. He wasn't a police officer, but he had spent so much time around law enforcement that he absorbed it. And he continues to spend a lot of time around law enforcement. I that's what I do. If you look at the back of Ashes Never Lie,

I talk to a lot of arson investigators, a lot, and I have a ton of reference, very expensive by the way, reference books on arson investigation that I refer to in my writing. but the reason I do it is not because I want to be writing a documentary, I just want to have enough kernels of truth that you'll believe all the utter bullshit that I spend the rest of my time on. I mean there's about 10 % of my books that's real, the rest is like,

The Thriller Zone with David Temple (01:22:44.576)
What is he talking about? I make so much stuff up, but if I can give you enough truth that you'll suspend your disbelief, that's all I'm trying to do. When I get emails from people saying, that would never happen, I said, you're right. That's why this is called fiction. I don't care if I get it right. What I care about is entertaining you. I'm not trying to write a factually accurate novel. It's nice if I sometimes am. Now I will say this, all the arson stuff.

You know, all the details about arson investigation and the clues, those are real. Yeah. Because that fascinates me. Sure. And I think it'll fascinate the reader, but so much other stuff. I gloss over so much about police procedural. I'm pretty free and loose with geography, you know, and, and, and courtroom procedure and all that, and, evidence collection. mean, I'd not, I mean, I had somebody write me a long letter about a,

what's that? I've forgotten the name of the place in Belgium that's the jewel capital, diamond capital. I'm having now a David Temple moment. But anyway, I wrote about this foreign town, not Antwerp. Was it Antwerp? Anyway, I wrote about this place. I'll put this on pause and wait for you to get it if you want to. I said this street was one way. And I got someone back saying, no, no, no, it goes the opposite direction of having where you have it go. I said, yes, but that didn't work for me.

In my world, you know, I'll someone say there's no Sacs Fifth Avenue on the corner of whatever in Palm Desert there is in my world. Who cares? Who cares? But the point that you made about your your pitch with Eldridge, what he's looking for and what I go for when I'm pitching in television is, yeah, I'll have a bunch of notes in front of me. But what I want to do when I talk to an executive.

is, well first I want to know before I even go in what they're looking for, what they want and what they don't want. So I know I'm not pitching them something they don't want to hear, but if I go into pitch, I pretend they're not executives. They're not publishers. I'm talking to David Temple and I just saw a fantastic movie over the weekend where I just read a great book and I want him to read it or watch it. So I tell, I pitch it the way I would pitch it to my wife or my friend.

The Thriller Zone with David Temple (01:25:07.68)
I read this story and I nail all the high moments that would make you want to go see this movie or read the book. And only then do I get granular. If they go, that sounds really good, tell me more. I don't worry if I'm leaving stuff out. If it doesn't occur to me when I'm pitching it, it can't be that important. I just want to hit the things that got me excited as a writer. So I always say, if you're going to pitch something, you have to pitch it with enthusiasm and pitch it from the heart and pitch it as if you're telling your friends at lunch.

or your family, why they've got to read this book or see this movie. Forget it's one you want to write or you want to produce. And that's worked well for me. I have to pitch all my books to my editor. I don't just get to write whatever I want. So I have to get them excited and willing to write me a check. How often do you ever pitch one and they just go, yeah, Lee, we're going to have to pass on that. It happens. also, this sounds like self -serving and it just comes from

Please go ahead. So many pitches, because every time I didn't, when I was running a TV show, we do 22 or 25 episodes a season, I had to pitch the episodes to the studio and the network. So I was always pitching. If I'm pitching and I see the eyes start to go, he's going for his watch. said, naked woman came in the room and she was on fire. She was, they didn't know why she was on fire or why she was naked. And you would not believe the reason why. What is it? You're to have to pay me to find out.

I don't want to give you the twist ending right now. I will adjust the pitch to wake them up. If I see they're nodding off, I'll say, and then his testicles exploded. Was it something he ate? Was it a bomb put in his underwear? I'll come up with anything. But the cop, here's the thing. He's masquerading as a cop. He is? Yes, he's not really a cop. What is he? He's actually a lifeguard.

What's a lifeguard doing at the crime scene? Well, that's a story in itself. And it's the heart of this book. No, I will just, I will make shit up to keep the pitch alive. And sometimes what I've ended up making up to keep the attention of the executive or the editor is far better than what I came in with. I think I'm going to, I'm going to say this and I think you would have probably agree with me. I think part of that is

The Thriller Zone with David Temple (01:27:26.542)
your confidence and your tenure in the business. That certainly helps. I mean, I'm going to be honest with you and your 73 million viewers. I have no confidence. I'm the most frightened guy in the room. I know what they... No, I'm being serious. I know what they don't know, which is I'm a talentless hack. And I'm just waiting for the one project where that's revealed. So I go into these pitches very worried, but this is the one where they're to go, I don't even know how you got in this meeting.

Yeah. How did you even get the writer's skill? you, I you just, suck. Yeah. And first of all, that's nice. You've been writing on it for the last few years. It's, it's played out. So, know, I, I, I, it's fear that motivates a lot of what I do and I overcompensate with energy and, and humor when I'm in a pitch to you. So you won't see me shaking. Dude. All right. First of all, I'm calling BS on it, but I'm going to take it because you're saying it. Well, and we,

This is so funny. I was going to kick off the season doing shorter episodes. And before you jump on me, let me tell you why. Most people I've done extensive research during my off time and found out that most shows drop somewhere between 16 and 21 minutes. The audience just falls off. So I thought, okay, season seven, I'm going to, people want it shorter. They got too much to do. I'm going to cut it down. Here you are. You and I clock in it in an hour and a half.

However, just cut into little pieces and you could use parts of it in seasons eight, nine and 10. No one knows the difference. I wear the same shirt in these things all the time. You know, just I have the same, you know, steel butt crack poster hanging from my. love it. So just just do little bites. Here's Lee Goldberg on pitching. Here's Lee Goldberg on his own massive ego stroking himself. Here's Lee Goldberg giving you some really bad advice that he thinks is good. And you can just do these little thrill bites and then they have to sit through the whole.

Because I know what my publisher will say. They'll watch this hour and a half and they'll say, you're like Trump. You just keep blathering on. You're supposed to be promoting your book. Why do you keep going off on this stuff instead of focusing on Ashes Never Lie, out September 17th, the second book in the Sharpenwalker series and a crossover with the Eve Ronan series? Why don't you talk about what you're supposed to be talking about instead of talking about stuff that has nothing to do with the book? And I would argue...

The Thriller Zone with David Temple (01:29:52.034)
that no one wants to hear me promote the book. They want to hear me. If they like me, they'll read the book. They're not going to like me and not read the book. So I failed on both levels, but still there's the... Because I've been in these, I won't say when, but I was on a big book tour and had to do these practice interviews with the PR department and they would write up my answers and they would say, these answers were good, these answers were bad.

Don't talk about any of this stuff. Don't talk about any of that stuff. Just focus on this. And I would take their memo and go, this is very, very helpful. I would toss it. Yeah. Well, there is no need to close the show as I often do with best writing advice because you've kind of sprinkled your best writing advice through the entire show. So if you have any last minute pitches or ideas that you want to toss at me, I'm all ears, but I'm tuckered out. Well,

Thanks for all this time, dude. It was like an hour and a half of just pure unmitigated joy. And I mean that. Seriously, you're so much fun. Thank you so much for. And I know that by the time, this show will drop inside the next handful of days and I'll turn around and all of sudden Lee will be knocking on the door. Hey, listen, I got another book coming out. I want to talk about it. do. My next book, Hidden in Smoke, the third Sharpenwalker comes out in April, 2025.

It's also an Eve Ronan crossover. And then in September of 2025 or October will be Fallen Star, the sixth Eve Ronan novel, also a Sharpenwalker crossover. They appear. And I have no idea what comes next except just shocking into my career. No. When I start working at Arby's, you'll find me at the Arby's in Westwood. How can I take your order, ma 'am?

Well, I will say there's one thing I know about you. You like food because I follow your Instagram and there's lots of photos of food on there. Besides books. am the, those of you who've read my books, there's this character, Duncan Donuts Pavone, who's always looking at his next meal. He's me. He's me though. You can't tell I haven't been ill, but I've lost probably 25 pounds since you've last seen me. Wow. My doctor told me I had to lose, I had to lose a lot of weight. So I'm losing.

The Thriller Zone with David Temple (01:32:06.988)
losing weight. Well, you look good as always. where I gained it all back. But otherwise I've been, I've been trying to lose quite a bit of weight and, I'm, I'm surprised that I'm actually succeeding. I'm going to be at, left coast crime, which I'm trying to where it is this year. Yeah. is it? Cause I love to. It's somewhere west of the Mississippi this year. And I will send me a note when you find out. Cause I'd love to meet up with you. had to cancel this year for family.

reasons. Yeah. And then I'm always, I'm always at voucher con and left coast crime. Yeah. Okay. And, and, so I'll, I'll, I'd love to see it either left coast or a thriller fest, but unless, unless something happens, you know, with, you know, personal commitments, you know, family stuff, I met those two conferences because inevitably I have books that come out around the same time as those conferences. Yeah. I'll imagine that.

Folks, you want to learn more, go to LeeGoldberg .com. Also check out the About and his books. And you want to pick up a copy of Ashes Never Lie, of course. And also Brash -Books .com slash About. Read that if you're thinking about joining Lee and his brigade of dandy writer -gentleman friends. I just made that up on the fly, and boy, it you. I think of myself as a dandy. Yeah. Actually, I'm just looking at myself here.

Loosen on the squid, I've got an old man neck now. What the hell happened to me? I was better when I had that jolly fat neck. People didn't know how old I was. They thought I was a very happy, jokey person. Now they look at me going, my God, he's old. Just get a clip and pull the skin back Yeah, I was about that. They're like Sharpen Walker. Something, there I am. I've lost it. Or as they call him, Sharpay. I love that. That's so hilarious. Well, my mind, he's Walter Mathow. Yeah. God, that's so Taking a Bellum one, two, three.

And speaking of which, who's going to pick up that for a TV series? I can't tell you. No, I think it was announced publicly. The rights to Malibu Burning have been optioned by a company called ID8 Media. Shelby Stone and Derek Dudley, the producers, they have shows like The Chai, a bunch of series, very successful series. They're developing Malibu Burning either as a TV series or a movie. I don't know for sure.

The Thriller Zone with David Temple (01:34:25.166)
The Eve Ronan series is also in development. cannot tell you with whom, but we have a terrific showrunner attached. Calico has been picked up by a major studio and again, a terrific showrunner attached. She's done several well -known hit series and they're pitching it in the coming weeks to streamers and networks. I have my fingers crossed. I don't get too hyped up about this because.

All my books have been optioned at one point or another. And they all get really, really close to getting made and don't get made. I don't get the news. don't get too excited. But it's always interesting to meet with these showrunners and screenwriters and hear what their approach is going to be to my work because I've been in their shoes. So I know what they're dealing with. I always have the same speech when I meet with a showrunner. What does it sound like? If this sounds rehearsed, it's only because I've said this so many times. Let me hear it.

I'll say, I will be as involved or uninvolved as you want me to be. If you want me just to stay at home, collect my check, see the show on TV, send you an email now and then saying, great job, I'll do that. If you want me consulting, if you want me to give you my ideas on your approach, if you want me to give you my thoughts on casting, if you want me to give notes on scripts, occasionally show up in the room to help break stories, I'll do that too. If you want me to actually earn my executive producer credit and be in the room,

I'm stories with you, prepping episodes. I will do that too. You decide and you can make up your mind at any point. We're going to structure the contract for all three scenarios. But here's the most important point. It's your show. Do whatever you want. My book is not the Holy Bible. It's just there. You have to make the show your own. You have to be excited about it. You have to instill your writing staff with enthusiasm.

feel you have to be slavishly loyal to what I wrote or you're going to produce a rotten show. My job, if I do consult on the show, will be to help you enact your vision of the show. You will be in charge, not me. I will not try to stab you in the back and take over. will not bad mouth the show. I will, however, tell you the truth. If I think your idea is terrible, I will say that idea is terrible. If you say that's what I really want to do, then I will say I will help you do that for the best of my ability.

The Thriller Zone with David Temple (01:36:51.758)
The only thing I'll try to protect is my characters. Ronan has to always be Eve Ronan. The Eve Ronan identifiable from the books. And I will argue to people who think I'm crazy doing that, if you look at the TV series Bones by Kathy Reichs, the TV series has virtually nothing to do with her books. The FBI agent doesn't exist. The Institute in Washington, doesn't exist. The show ran for 12 years.

She recently set a lawsuit for $25 million. Do you think she cares that the TV series is different from the books? No, the essence of Temperance Brennan is still there. The same is true for Spencer for Hire and so many other shows. As long as it captures the essence of the books, it's all right to go in a different direction. The Dexter TV series was far better than the Dexter books. The Old Man is very, very different from Thomas Perry's novel.

I embrace the differences and I tell the showrunners, I will never be an obstacle to your success or mine. you know, and they'll say, years ago, I optioned Eve Ronan to Jerry Bruckheimer and CBS. And I gave that speech and Jerry Bruckheimer said, people said, option number one, we never want to see you again.

We don't want to hear from you. We don't want know you exist. All right. I didn't see the script until after the network passed on the pilot. Then I read the pilot and I thought the writer made some really smart changes. And I emailed him and said, I'm sorry the series didn't go because I really liked your take. He said, I'm so glad to hear from you. I want to reach out to you. And they said, no, no, he's toxic. He's radioactive. Don't talk to the author. Whatever you do, don't talk to the author. my God. And other situations where they've wanted me very, very much involved. And that's been great, too.

Wow. What a great story. I love that. It's that confidence coming through again, Not confidence. It's, don't want to screw up. I've been on the other side where I've adapted books by authors and the author has made life absolutely miserable. God. Well folks, once again, website, leegoberg .com book, Ashes Never Lie, Walker and Sharp. Just so much fun. Lee?

The Thriller Zone with David Temple (01:39:13.074)
Now I'm running out of time, so thank you for your time and I'm going to see you here very shortly on the next book. I'll be here. Same shirt. Do me a favor and say a great big thank you, glorious wrap -up. God, Dave, this is so fantastic. Ready? Go. Thank you so much for having me on The Thriller Zone. It's like going to psychoanalysis except it doesn't cost me as much.