Legal Thrillers and the Art of Tension with Robert Dugoni

The Thriller Zone with David Temple (00:00.106)
The word you use there that really hits home is being a conduit. The reason I went to this technique is I've heard Stephen King talk about it. I've heard Diana Gabaldon talk about it. I've heard some really successful, well-known writers talk about putting yourself in a place, in an environment where you can simply transcribe the story that's being told to you. Because if the story being told to you is interesting and magical to you, it'll probably be interesting and magical to your readers.

On today's 204th episode of The Thriller Zone, I am so happy to welcome Robert Dugoni for a return visit to our podcast. With four different series, six complete standalone novels, and a couple of short stories to boot, Bob is a critically acclaimed New York Times, Wall Street Journal, Washington Post, and number one Amazon bestselling author, reaching over nine million readers worldwide. Today, we're gonna talk about books,

chess, the work of perfecting our craft, and a field of dreams. Plus, much more, so let's get to it! The Thriller Zone begins now! How do you like the new car smell of Season 7?

What? We're in season seven, all right. All right. Well, congratulations. Thank you. That's awesome. Congratulations. Thank you. It's guys like you that makes it happen, though. I got to tell you that. Well, I'm always I'm pleased to be asked. So thanks for having me. Sure. Hey, listen, let's get right to it. Besides putting out Beyond Reasonable Doubt, what has been happening since last we spoke? Now we were doing

Her deadly game last time, which you remember me raving about, this one picks up with Kira again, equally as good. I would love to say better. It could be better. It's kind of, you know, up to the people's choice. But what have you been up to since then? I mean, talk to me. Well, a lot of different things are going on. I have a new historical coming out in January that I wrote with two guys that did a ton of research, 10 years of research on

The Thriller Zone with David Temple (02:00.94)
Japanese hell ships during World War II. So it's a World War II saga. So that'll be out. I just finished another Tracy Crossway book number 11. That'll be out next April, I think. I just turned in the third Kira book. So that'll be out in a while. And then on top of all that, we're knee deep in Hollywood with writers, producers, directors, and all that stuff.

You know how it is down there, right? It's a long way off probably, but we're moving in the right direction. And I think I've sold every, I think I've sold almost everything now is under, you know, under contract. So we'll see where it goes. So it's been busy. It's been busy. my God. I wish I had your I'm traveling way too much. You know, I think I'm going to go over a hundred thousand miles this year.

And I gotta be honest, I'm not a great traveler anymore. Well, because you just turned 39? Is that what it is? Or is it 40 now? Maybe it's 40, I can't... No, you know, it's hard to be away from the desk, be away from my wife, you know, it's hard. you know, I may cut back on travel next year. I said that last year, but I may actually do it this year. We'll see.

I'm with you though, dude. My wife's out of town right now in business and you know, we get separated by more than 48 hours and we're like, no bueno. Yeah. Yeah. Hey, by the way, when you say in Hollywood, first of all, everything's selling. Number two, was, I was revisiting, we had a conversation about the experience, the extraordinary life of Sam Hill, which such a unique story. And we're going to come back to that in a second, but those

rights were optioned, I want to say like 20 or maybe even before, so it's like four plus years. Is that thing, where is that thing now? So a new director picked up the option. He's back, he was in Los Angeles, did some really, you'd know the shows, and he's now in New Jersey, kind of a lifestyle change, and he's trying to work on inspirational films.

The Thriller Zone with David Temple (04:18.232)
So he's got it right now and he's trying to sell it. He's working with inspirational producers, directors. He just was talking with Ben Affleck and Matt Damon's group that they have. So it's in the pipeline, just like all the other things. You just don't know what's gonna happen.

Folks, if you remember last time we chatted, we touched on this and you've heard this before on the show how people go, yay, you got optioned. But to Bob's point, that option might've been four plus years ago, maybe a decade ago, and you may be waiting a long time. Because just buying the option means we're putting it on hold, which means we kind of take it off the market. And like, if I put a bid on his work, I'd go out and try to find the money and the director and so forth.

And then PS if you can't put those deals together inside a aforementioned time The option lapses it goes back to you. Yeah, and then you're off to the races again Yeah, and there's I mean there's just a lot of things i'm learning there's a lot of things that have to happen in hall in los angeles and You know from finding a writer to finding a director to finding a producer and to finding then a cast and putting all those things together and doing all

You know, it's just a long process. It really is. And people move a lot in Los Angeles. You know, they move from one company to another. There's been some consolidation of the movie houses. You had the strike, the writer's strike down there, which, you know, set people back time. They're fighting the whole AI thing. There's just a lot going on. These are uncertain times in a whole lot of ways. Like we talking about the hurricane just before we started the show.

Hollywood and the maneuverings of Hollywood are much like a storm every it builds up this momentum. Everyone's excited You're in the eye of the storm. Yeah, and then it blows off shore and it dissipates and so forth. But yeah Patience is a virtue Having done a film myself both adapting it and writing it and producing it and directing and raising the money I know all those little tiny elements and it took me years to put this thing together. Yeah

The Thriller Zone with David Temple (06:37.728)
And at the end of the day, you hope that people like it. Anyway, well, I am loving on the legal thrillers. I am fascinated by them. find myself, Tammy and I, my wife, we watch so many legal thrillers and your work is right up there at the tip top of all of them. Thank you. And you can always count on me, front row seat to the fan club. I want to know, and we...

We may have covered this before, Bob, but how has your background in law influenced your writing and informed it? Now you're thinking to yourself, well, Dave, if he went to school for that, it's going to automatically do that. But I'd like you to break it down for me if you can. Yeah, no, not necessarily so. I think it's a good question. You know, what I'm finding, to be perfectly honest, is I've been out of a courtroom for so long that I think it would be foreign to me.

And so I have to go down every once in a while and sit in a courtroom and see they have graphics, they have computer screens, the juries have computer screens. mean, attorneys walk in now with a laptop. They don't walk in with boxes of beacons, boxes of documents and posters. They walk in with a laptop and they plug it in. So there's different things. But you know, the one thing that remains the same is the tension when you walk into a courtroom.

there is always going to be tension. if it's a trial, that tension is just heightened and maximized. And the key to writing a good book, right, is having tension on every line of every page, according to Stephen King. And if you can do that, people are going to keep turning the page. So a courtroom has built in tension. World War II, Nazis, Germans, built in tension, you know? And so...

For me, it's a matter of understanding the tension in the room, understanding how Keira's gonna feel, understanding the proper objections, understanding how a judge is gonna speak, the legalese, that sort of thing. So that's helped me immensely, but I'm getting old and I'm not, I haven't been in the courtroom in a long time, so I have to really sort of pay attention. You're not the spring chicken you used to be. No.

The Thriller Zone with David Temple (08:55.0)
You know, there is an, speaking of this, there's an idea that's been percolating on the back of my mind for some time. And I'd love for you to walk me through it. And you kind of just touched on it, your research process for those courtroom scenes. And that's what I love. One of my absolute favorite things, especially in Beyond Reasonable Doubt, is when you get into the courtroom, I feel like it's a combination of me watching a film and me sitting right there in the front row.

Watching this whole thing happen. So i'm i'm wondering You know, especially with legal intricacies and so forth walk me through that research process Especially since it's been so long since you were in the room so, you know, I have friends that are prosecutors and and every once in a while i'll just i'll go down in the courtroom i'll see what's going on and i'll go in and i'll sit and i'll listen and and i'll pay attention but you know, the actual

inner workings of a lawyer with his client and that sort of thing hasn't hasn't changed that much. The best trial attorneys that I knew, which is what sort of led me to write her deadly game in the first place, were very good chess players, right? There's a lot of strategy involved. There's a lot of understanding that things can go in different directions and having a response to each of those directions. There's a lot of acting that goes into trying cases.

You know, trying to not look like you were just completely blindsided by what the other side just did. Trying to act like you're not panicked. Trying to be confident in what you have to say. mean, those are, those are all things that I sort of have instilled in, in Cara Dugan. She's, she's innately really talented. She gets it from her father, who was an excellent trial attorney. But if you've ever seen the really good trial attorneys, you know, you'll know what I'm talking about. I mean,

They just have this air of authority when they stand up to speak. Yeah, I'm trying to think of Lincoln lawyer. What's that guy? I'm trying to. Yeah. He when he steps up, you just know it. There's a party that goes, might as well just sit back down and shut my mouth. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. There's another movie or series. Jake Gyllenhaal was in it and it was

The Thriller Zone with David Temple (11:22.702)
come on. was it? Is it the Scott Turow remake? Yes. Presumed Innocent. Presumed Innocent. I just read yesterday that Jake has agreed and signed on his EP. They're bringing it back for another another go. fabulous. So I guess Scott's back. Everybody's told me that I need to watch that. I've been reluctant because I read the book and I watched the original movie, but everyone says you got to watch it.

Dude, if I may call you that, it is so bloody good. And I remember, I will not give it away, Tammy and I are sitting there watching and it's coming up to the crescendo. And when the crescendo happened, we both, and we've been watching a lot of television. We got a pretty good inside scoop and we both went. Yeah. What? I've heard that, which is great. Which is what you want in a book, which is what you want in a television series.

is you want those moments where it surprises you. The author does a 180 and you're sitting there wondering, wait a minute, where did this come from? Yeah, yeah, you got that talent too, Well, you do your best, I'll tell you. Well, you know one thing that you said to me last time, Bob, and I have quoted you on this and it's become one of my favorite things to say and I hope I don't butcher it.

But I was saying something about the fact of you're checking in on your confidence and how are you feeling about a particular book? And you said, David, I'm nervous every single book. I keep thinking every single book, they're going to find me out. You still feel that way for sure? Yeah, you know, I talk about this openly and honestly in that in 2016, I had a stroke and I don't have any residual effects, but

But one of the things that did hit me was anxiety. Yeah. Low levels of anxiety. So I have low levels of anxiety and probably a little bit of OCD. And so every time I sit down at a computer and I, Stephen King even says it, right? He says, the scariest moment is when you sit down at a blank page and you think to yourself, okay, I got to fill 400 of these. So, you know, I think it's, I think it's natural for

The Thriller Zone with David Temple (13:43.822)
for any human being at the beginning of whatever they're doing to have a little self doubt, not a lack of confidence, but just, you you don't know how things are gonna go. It's like, we were talking off screen, it's like going to the airport, right? Everything seems like it's orderly until you show up and you know, you have something in your bag you weren't supposed to have and then you can't get through security and then you get there and the flight's been canceled and you know.

things happen and you just you just have to deal with them. So yeah, every book and I and I think that for you know, new writers out there, I think it's a good thing because you should you should feel like the book that you're writing is the first book that anybody out there is going to read of yours. And so it has to be your very best book. Yeah, that's so good. And

You know, you've heard this phrase before and I've had a couple of people say it on the show over these three years, 200 plus episodes. And you hear this, thank you. You hear this phrase, write the book that you want to read. And that sounds real simplistic, but it is so true. It's so funny. I have a certain flavor, a certain style, a certain speed, a certain brevity, a certain fill in the blank.

that I look for and I like, I'm attracted to. Your book does this in spades. A lot of times it's dialogue, but it's good dialogue. And of course nobody wants bad dialogue, but I'm amazed at how much dialogue is out there. But when you find that perfect combination and you've got it, no smoke up your skirt, then you have to, back to your blank page comment.

You got to lean back into the fact, muscle memory, baby, I got this. Trust yourself. I think a lot of it comes to just trusting in yourself. Right? Do you think? Absolutely. Absolutely. You know, some years ago I went from being a guy that outlined and then was off my outline in the first day to being a guy that that writes organically. And what I always say to people is you just have to trust that that voice in your head that's telling you this story.

The Thriller Zone with David Temple (16:02.358)
knows where the story's going and knows how you're gonna get there. A lot of way when I was younger I used to, this is funny, I used to relate it to skiing downhill. And when I would ski downhill I wasn't a very good skier. My kids were great, my wife was great, and so I was always being tested. And I used to think of that scene in Star Wars where they're flying that ship in between that and they're saying stay on course, stay on course, stay on course, stay on.

And that's how I equate writing. I equate it to the same thing as don't stop to question yourself. Just stay on course, keep going forward, keep your fingers moving, keep typing, get to the end of the scene. Yeah. And without breaking your neck, without breaking your neck and without sweating too much. It's so funny. And I think part of reason I tell that story and I say it to my friends, you know, off, off Mike and I'm like, guys, just when you think you're doubting yourself,

Think about Bob, think about Steven, think about the other guys. Don Winslow said it one day, I don't show up every day and go, here comes the brilliance. anyway, enough about that. As tough a question as this may be, and I'm pretty good for these, and it's kind of like picking your favorite child, but of all the books, and you gotta stack up, I don't even have enough time to read, or rather to describe all the books that you've written.

But do you have a favorite or do you have a favorite character or do you have one or the other that you kind of use as your muse, your inner voice? Like whenever you feel those moments of, that you go to that character? So the one that's my favorite is, I would say is the Extraordinary Life of Sam Hell. And that's because I really wrote it in a way to sort of honor my mom.

That book just has, it has that, for me it's like sitting down and wrapping yourself in a blanket and having a cup of tea and watching your favorite television show. Probably the book I'm most proud of would be The World Played Chess and that's because it was probably the most difficult book for me to write. There were moments in that book where I knew what I had to do and I knew what that meant for some of the characters where I was literally, I was literally in tears.

The Thriller Zone with David Temple (18:24.994)
when I was writing and I don't say that to be schmaltzy or anything like that. It's just that, you know, there were characters in that book that I really cared about that had become sort of a part of me and I realized they were going to die. But that's what Vietnam was all about. And so that book was a challenge for me. And I could also say that the first Tracy Crosswhite book, you know, My Sister's Grave has special significance because it really put me on the map.

Yeah, it gave me the opportunity to get to do all the things i've been blessed with doing Yeah, okay, so it's not a fair question, but you gave me three that's pretty good And I want to go back to something you see you're talking about beyond reasonable doubt. You wrote this puppy without an outline Correct All right folks. Let me just tell you something You want to see you want to see a a craftsmanship in action? Knowing what you just learned I would I would

That's hard to believe. And of course, we've had these discussions on the show for over three years now about Panzerplot and all that stuff. And what I find so fascinating is we all set out, I'm gonna have a nice little dandy outline. I'm going to be in control of this puppy. Right. But to me, the magic, and we're gonna come back to that word in a second, the magic is, and I'm gonna use the other word trust, trusting.

that the inspiration that's coming to you is going to provide the story if you'll just be a a conduit and just listen. Right. Yeah. I think, you know, the word you use there that really hits home is being a conduit. I've heard the reason I went to this technique is I've heard Stephen King talk about it. I've heard Diana Gabaldon talk about it. I've heard some really, really successful, well-known writers talk about putting yourself in a place in an environment.

where you can simply transcribe the story that's being told to you. Because if the story being told to you is interesting and magical to you, it'll probably be interesting and magical to your readers. People ask me all the time, or people will quote to me all the time quotes from Sam Hell or quotes from the world played chess, know, like growing old is a privilege, it's not a right. And they'll say, where did you get that? And I'll say, I don't even remember writing it.

The Thriller Zone with David Temple (20:53.166)
People ask me if I ever go back and read my books. I don't, but the times that I've picked them up and looked at them, I don't remember some of the things that I've written on that page. And so I think what you said about trusting the muse, and I really do believe, as hokey as it sounds, I really do believe that in some respects we are conduits and we are telling a story that's already been written. And the best thing we can do, and Chris,

Kristen Hannah told me this, the best thing we can do as writers is get out of the way.

Yeah, yeah, shut up and get out of the way. You know, I think about the great artist of all the centuries before us. That muse spoke to them and if they went, geez, if Michelangelo said, know, Da Vinci said, hey, you know what? I don't know about that carving, that David guy. I think I see him shorter with bigger hands, you know, whatever. Well, you you raise a really interesting.

really interesting question and a really interesting issue because respecting the muse does not mean not understanding the craft. and so I always have to clarify when I say I respect the muse that I've been doing this for 25 years and 30 books. I know how a story is told. I know how a story is put together. The two greatest researchers, you know, in, in, in, and the two most famous artists ever were Michelangelo and Leonardo da Vinci. They spent years.

studying human anatomy, human muscles, human tissue, whatever it is. They did years of it. They didn't just look at a rock and go, let me put a chip here and a chip here. So, you know, it's really a combination of doing the work you need to do to become the craftsman and the artist that you want to be. That's so well put. And you know, we could quote, 10,000 hours and all that stuff, but man,

The Thriller Zone with David Temple (22:56.714)
I saw it when I was growing up as a kid wanting to be on the radio and I'm like, hey, I might not be cool right now, which I wasn't and I had buck teeth and bad skin, but I'm like, I got a pretty decent voice and that's what I want to do. I'm just gonna, I'm just gonna trust that and go for it. And that was my passion and boom, happened. And I mean, and here you are, right? mean, dreams are, dreams are important. And you know, I always talk to my kids about this. say, find what you love to do and find a way to make a living at it. Yeah.

I mean, that's really the blessing in life is when you can do that. And you do have that talent. You do have that voice. So for you to recognize that at a young age and then follow that dream, mean, that's something that a lot of people don't get the opportunity to do. And it's great when you see it happen. Yeah. Well, thank you for that. And I think also it takes a pretty healthy...

dash of courage and that courage came early. I think it's because I had parents who said, hey, buddy, follow your dreams. You'll figure it out. That's a really good one. I use this phrase a lot too, Bob. go, and I was using it just the other day and someone stopped me and said, wait, what again? And I'm like, I don't worry about the how, I just worry about the what. I focus on the what. This is what I wanna do. I wanna write a book.

I want to write a book as good as Bob DeGone is. Okay, I want to do that. How it'll happen. It'll happen. know, yeah, Michael, Michael Callip. He was probably one of the one of the top, one of the premier portrait photographers in the world. And I'm not making that up. Look him up. He said to me one time, follow your dreams and the money will come. Yeah. All of the money and you'll lose your dreams. And I that was really, really,

And I've thought about that often in my life and in my own career. I have never written a book thinking about the money I'm going to make. I've never sold anything in LA thinking about the film I'm going to make. All I think about is the story that I'm writing and I'm doing what I love to do. And everything else, like you said, sort of the how falls in place. Yeah. Dad gum, this is a master class in making your dreams come true, people.

The Thriller Zone with David Temple (25:16.928)
Now I have I've had some very interesting conversations recently and I I couldn't wait to pick your brain on this because you have mastered both camps Standalones and series and so I'd like to know have we I think we've talked about the pros and cons of both but I want to say do you have a preference Between either one of those and then I have a follow-up. That's a little surprising. I I don't really have a preference.

I just like, try to tell a good story, whether or not that evolves into a series. A lot of times that is reflective of whether or not the reading public has taken to it and says, I want more. Yeah. Okay. and I heard this since you, I'm pretty sure you were with the Thomas and Mercer, aren't you? I am. Yes. I don't have to check on that.

I heard this and I don't know if this is inside scoop or Truth or assumption. I don't know. Do you have you heard this that Amazon prefers their writers to write only? In threes meaning if you're do a series only do three. Have you heard this? So what I will say this I have never heard Amazon says that only write in three I will say that it is a rare series that continues beyond three books simply because

most authors don't have enough ideas or they don't have enough characters within the world who are interesting enough to carry a series beyond the third book. And that is not a function of Amazon as much as it is a function of the writer. So when you have a series like James Bond or Jack Reacher or Diana Gabaldon's The Outlander that goes beyond Tracy Crosswhite, goes beyond three books.

It's usually because the author has created an interesting enough character, an interesting enough world that readers want to find out more about what happens. And you can do it in one of two ways. Jack Reacher, James Bond, he's always the same. The book starts, he's always the same. He never changes. And so you're getting a new story, but the same character. Or you can do what I do, what Outlander does, what other series do, whereas the character ages, the character changes, the character might get married.

The Thriller Zone with David Temple (27:41.592)
character might have children. And so it's new. It's new every time that it comes. So I think it's more a product of have you created an interesting enough character and an interesting enough world that they can exist beyond three books. That is very nicely put. And maybe I heard that somewhere, but doesn't really matter. I think about the very first series I

Really got wrapped up into and and I think it's the first it's the first one that i'm recalling right now when sue grafton came up with The alphabet series with kenzie milhone And I thought I couldn't wait to read the very next one because and I don't I don't believe i'm not even sure she ever aged She was just in a different situation living in that, you know guest house in the back and so forth but it You bring up a really good point

because sometimes when I'm reading a series and I'm four or five in and I'm not mentioning any names here, I'm like, well, this feels kind of derivative of something that happened before, or this isn't really got the punch that the first couple did. And then I find myself going, okay, well, I'll keep digging into it. And sometimes I just can't. So here's what I have come to conclude. I was watching,

just went out of my head. was watching the television series about Alfred, Batman's butler. There was a series about him being in the British secret intelligence before he becomes Alfred. And it was on TV and I loved it. And the reason I loved it is because the bad guys never died. So I always knew the next series, next season, the next show.

the bad guy was always gonna be there. If you think about Lord Voldemort, right? If you think about Darth Vader, right? What continues in a series is not the story. The story wraps up every single episode, but what continues is the tension created by the antagonists. And that's what I think can make a story be sustainable beyond three books and many books is if you...

The Thriller Zone with David Temple (29:59.126)
So what I learned watching that series, and I wish I could think of the damn name, is I learned never kill a good antagonist. Now see, now you got me going, because it's not the Kingsman. It was a British show, Alfred Pennyworth. There you go, Alfred Pennyworth. So the show was called Pennyworth. man, was, the last season got a little, but.

It was really well done. Never kill an antagonist. Yeah, that's something we're gonna take away with today. you don't like, nobody wants that at the end of the show. And you know, it's getting so much harder, Bob. Don't you think, especially with the advent of the streaming overload, when you see these massive streaming shows and you're like, wait, geez, you're bringing it back for another 10 episodes? No, stop. Yeah. Yeah.

However you can have a show like The Old Man, my goodness. And I didn't even realize it was Thomas Perry's books because they put his name at the end and not at the front. And I don't get that. I don't understand that. Why you would not take a well-known writer like Thomas Perry and a well-known book like The Old Man and put that at the front of the show to gain more audience. But I thought that was really well done.

I think it's and I can't decide If it is it's one of the best shows on television period and I can't decide is it the writing is so good The premise is so solid or that Jeff. Well, you got Jeff John Lithgow John Lithgow two of the best actors in the world Johnny when's the last time you just

hung on the edge of your seat every single episode. And here's the other thing I really love, is there's so little chewing up of the scenery with lots of dialogue. It's the empty spaces and the silence and the darkness and the shadows, the cinematography. It's just, and you're just like, you know, I, you probably have come to this conclusion. I'm sure you've dealt with it a lot more than I have, but great acting can't save bad writing.

The Thriller Zone with David Temple (32:21.686)
and great writing can't say bad acting. You have to have both. And when you have both, it's magical. The movie for me that just is field of dreams. I will watch field of dreams and within three minutes I'm tearing up. I mean, it's just it's a magical combination between James Earl Jones and Kevin Costner and everybody in that show. It's just.

Wow, Ray Liotta. It's magic. And I think that's what people mean when they talk about Hollywood and they talk about magic. Hollywood has a lot of its own problems and issues and all those things that come with fame. But when they get it right, that magic. And to circle back, if you asked me, Off the Cuff, my number one favorite film, Filled with Dreams, always has been since the movie came out. Number one.

Now, granted, lot of people go, but dude, there's Godfather. I'm like, we both have now used the word a number of times. It's called magic. And there's something about it's a combination of there's innocence. It's a simpler time. There is mysticism in it. There is baseball, which is about as American as you can get.

And that scene near the end of the movie when Kevin Costner turns and says, you want to play catch? I lose it every single time. I do too. Because my dad and I, and I lost him way too early in life. I always go back to those summer nights, fried chicken wafting through the windows, my mom cooked and my dad in the backyard just in that smack of the glove and the

The crickets in the background and the heat. mean, I'm going to lose my stuff right here if I keep going, but man, those are just magic. So hanging, hanging above on one of my shelves here, my son gave me his, his bat. He had a wooden bat that he used and he gave me the, his bat when he, when he hit after his final game and on it, he had engraved, Hey dad, do you want to have a play catch? He engraved the line from the movie and I have it.

The Thriller Zone with David Temple (34:43.328)
up on my shelf. I love it. Okay, as we start to wrap up, so I don't pull out the hanky here, and I always close my show, as you know, with best writing advice. You've started out with good writing advice. You had shocked me in the middle with some writing advice. So I think what I'm going to do is I'm going to have to give it a little twist. And I'm going to say, what advice would you give aspiring authors looking to blend

personal experiences with fiction much like you did as you studied chess as you were crafting your legal thrillers. You know, I think what I would say to them is don't let reality get in the way of the fiction. If you try to make it too real, I think you begin to sort of self edit yourself. So the reality, the thing that you bring to the story that is a part of you, like in the world played chess, you know, this summer that I graduated from high school and I got a job on a

on a construction crew with two Vietnam veterans. That's the format that begins the story, but don't let it be the story. If you're writing fiction, be open enough to what the characters want to do and what the characters want to say. Because otherwise, just, you begin to put constraints on your characters, and that's what we've been talking about this whole episode. You put constraints on your characters and they can't just live.

And if your characters can't live, they're not gonna be real. So good. You know, one thing about talking to you, Bob, I always walk away going, I could have talked to him for another hour. And I appreciate that. Well, I enjoy it. I always enjoy it very much, David. Yeah. Thank you. And I know that we were trying to get a face-to-face and I think you were at a wedding or something. Somehow our schedules didn't align because next time,

I don't want to say promise me because that's putting too much pressure on us. But man, if I got to come up to Seattle and sit down with you, I'll do it. Well, we're not that far away. you said, and this time I wished it could have worked. just, you know, we flew down for a wedding, had an event Friday night, a thing all day Saturday, and then we had to go to a 90th birthday party Sunday up in Newport. So it just didn't work out. But I'm not that far away and I'd love to do it. Yeah, we'd have a lot of fun.

The Thriller Zone with David Temple (37:09.73)
Well, folks, if you want to learn more, you know where to go. RobertDugoniBooks.com. once again, I look forward to the next book, whatever it is. as you heard, Bob's got his hands full for 25. So we're going to be hearing a whole lot of something for you. Bob, thank you once again. Thank you, David. Pleasure.