New York Times bestselling author Jack Carr discusses The Power of Emotion in Storytelling

The Thriller Zone with David Temple (00:02.574)
Hello and welcome to The Thriller Zone. I'm your host David Temple and on today's 188th episode I am stoked to welcome for a return visit number one New York Times bestselling author Jack Carr. Now as you know Jack burst onto the scene with the debut thriller The Terminalist that launched his career and went on to become a top rated television series. Well Jack is back with James Reese and his seventh thriller Red Sky Morning. So I think it's time for you and I to jump into The Thriller Zone.

thanks for doing a little squeeze in, JC. Yeah, yeah, no, excited. Like, I'm like, what happened to the Thriller Zone? To David, I'm like, what happened? So here we are. I want to, I want to wrap him on the noggin for that. I'm like, I reached out and it's like, can I, can I get this big, bad, beautiful book from Mr. Carr? He goes, yeah, let me send it to you. And I'm like, well, can we talk? it is a little crazy. It's pretty insane, but it's all, all great. All great.

Well, I promised to keep this light, bright and tight. We'll be in and out. Nobody gets hurt. But Jack, once again, I mean, come on, you did it again. Thank you. man. It is my favorite. So every one has been my favorite because I'm always trying to improve. And someone asked me like a week ago, a couple of weeks ago now about that. And he asked me why it was my favorite. And I was like, that's an interesting question. No one falls off with a why.

And I was like, you know what? It's because I feel like I'm getting better at my craft, which makes me feel great. Because I'm certainly putting in the effort to do so. But to actually feel like I did at the end and not be lying to myself or anything like that, then that's for me a success. And I feel like each one has gotten better. I've gotten better as a writer. And that's always my goal. My goal for the next one is to make it better than Red Sky Morning. Sure.

So if it's my favorite, the next one, then that means that I feel that I was successful in that pursuit. You know, and we talk about this a lot on the show, Jack, about people having this syndrome that goes, I think it sucks, man. No one's going to like this one. And I don't know where that comes from or why we do it or why we continue to feed that machine. But I have realized that with time, if you just go, hey, by the way, wherever you are on the shoulder, just shut up. I got books to write.

The Thriller Zone with David Temple (02:28.206)
And isn't it funny that after you get it done, you go, why was I worried? Because this turned out really great. Yeah. And it's interesting when you hear somebody say it, who obviously does not mean it. You know, you know, I'm talking about, and then that's just annoying. Like, come on, you know, you have whatever, you know what I'm saying. So I've never felt like that. I've never had the imposter syndrome. And I don't know why that is. People talk about it, but I don't know if they talk about it because they have.

heard about it from other people so much so they feel like, it's something that you should experience or should feel at a certain stage. But I do not. And I didn't have in the field SEAL teams. I heard some people once again talk about it in the SEAL teams. Like a SEAL leader feel like an imposter. Like, OK, maybe step aside and let someone else step up there that can do the frigging job. I don't need you wasting any bandwidth worried about you doing it right. I need you to be working on being the best warfighter and leader you possibly can be. And if you're doing that, you're

then that's your job. That's your job to be prepared to go to war. And in order to do that, you need to be a student of warfare. So I think if you're a lifelong student, or at least for me, I feel like I was a lifelong student of warfare, I still am, and a lifelong student of this craft, first from the fan perspective, and now as a practitioner of that craft. And I look at both as professions too. The profession of arms, it's called the profession of arms, not the career of arms for a reason. And this is a profession as well. I think there's something.

precision language reflects precision in thought and i think there's something different about thinking about something as a career versus a profession and i certainly have thought of everything that i've done in life thus far as a profession so so i don't feel that and i could tell when people say it they don't really mean it to you i'm so glad you called that out because the older i get in especially with this recent diagnosis of cancer i have realized that and i'm working on a non -fiction book about it by this by the way

Because I it puts it into reality real quick that there's two there's you know, life is in two columns the shit that matters and everything else and if it ain't mattering, you know then be focusing on the thing that you have control of or enjoy and or that you know that you should be doing Yeah, I know exactly and if you you love it and you're striving for constant improvement. I mean, that's the best that's the best anyone

The Thriller Zone with David Temple (04:51.086)
can do so when you get complacent maybe obviously complacency kills there's a reason there's that that's been passed along the especially at the end of a deployment that's when you have to be the most careful turning over with the next platoon coming in because you've been there for six months already you feel like you know the enemy the terrain that is the time when you really need to be on your game so that complacency kills and I don't know if I don't think I'll ever feel complacent I've never felt complacent about anything in my life.

But I guess if someone were to feel complacent about their writing, that's maybe the, when you hear reviews of people phoning it in or whatever, I don't know if that's ever the case. It might just be something horrible that people say in reviews. I can't imagine ever phoning something in. I don't know how you could possibly do it when it's just you and you're putting your heart and soul into every word. It would be very difficult to spend a year phoning something in. Maybe it's just that...

That person didn't like it didn't like the topic didn't like the direction whatever but it would be hard to phone something in for an entire Year, yeah self to it day by day. That sounds absolute. That sounds awful So I don't I don't think I I don't think I'll ever fall into that trap if it's even a trap I don't know if it is. No, I also wonder this Jack. Why do people say, you know, they'll go You know along with that false? Bravado. you know, I'm just not really sure is my best work

I kind of look at it this way. There are days, this is going to sound really egotistical, so bear with me for a second. Sometimes I'll write down something, I'm like, damn, that's good. Yes, I love that. Yeah, yeah, fantastic. I love that. And more often than not, I know that sounds like a lot of people want to call me on ego, but I'm like, no, somewhere in that cortex, that all came together the right way and that's damn good. And...

Why can't we wrap our arms around that more often?

The Thriller Zone with David Temple (06:45.71)
Yeah, no, that's a great feeling. I love that feeling. I love getting that feeling from other authors too. If I'm reading somebody else, I'm like, wow, that was really, really good. That paragraph, that sentence, whatever it might be, like, ooh, that's fantastic. Gosh, yeah, I get that when I've Stephen Hunter. You can take his name off a book, off an article, and read a paragraph and you know that's Stephen Hunter. You can do that with Daniel Silva. You can do that with

Vince Flynn. That was some of these some of these got yours no mistaking who who's writing these things if you're if you've read their other things if you're a student of this bottom from the fan perspective you can tell. So I I love reading that when I'm writing I get when I get emotional about something. I'm like that's I that's a great feeling when you get to hear about as you're writing something because emotional to you because you're connected to these these characters and whether it's a conversation or something that happens or the way that you've described something or the

feelings behind a sentence or a paragraph, that's when I know I'm on to something is when I feel emotional having written it or as I am writing it or when I go back and I read it. So every book has had those sections for me thus far. So maybe if I ever write a book that doesn't have those, maybe that's time to take a break and sail around the world for a year or so. But I haven't had that yet.

And you know what? This book did it yet again. And I love it. There's plenty of military jargon. There's plenty of equipment references, like to the nth degree. And that's cool. And that's awesome. And I said this to you last time we spoke. When you can pull me into the relationship, especially between James and the love of his life, when you can pull me into that and make me feel it and make me go, you know, and maybe even.

tear up in one of those moments, kind of what you just said, then you got me hook, line, and sinker, and everything else is good, but that's the gravy that I look for. thank you. No, I love writing quotes. It's hard. Yeah.

The Thriller Zone with David Temple (08:49.934)
It's hard. And that's that that's that thing. I think that's the difference when something that's subjective art form that intangible that you can't really point to. And that's what it is. It's hard. Yeah. And you can tell when you read something if it has that heart or not. I think that's what differentiates the good from the great. No matter what the art form is, is that heart that goes in. You can't once again you can't describe it, but you can feel it. And that's what makes art. And speaking of heart, and I will not give it away. But boy, that conclusion.

The ending is so, mm. I want people to stay off social media the week it comes out. Don't, cause someone will ruin something in the comments. So just stay out of the comment section. How about that? the week it comes out or until you've listened to it or read it. That's my, that's my little bit of advice for people. Yeah. Well, I know the book launch kicks off like right now. I understand that. And by the time people are hearing this, you're, you're on the road to the book tour and,

I want to add, I got two questions for you. The first one's pretty easy. What is your favorite part of these book tours? Because you light up like a kid at Christmas at these things. Well, I love talking about books in general. So anytime we're talking about books or films, especially from the 80s, TV shows, especially from the 80s, I do. I love talking about books, reading other authors, authors who influenced me, the books on these shelves behind me.

I just love it and I love to thank people in person. So I use social media as a way to do that virtually something that authors couldn't have done 30 years ago, but now you can and someone jumps on there and says, I love the book. I gave it to my dad and we haven't really read a book together before, but we're reading it and we're discussing it. And I mean, I just love that. And so I hit that heart button and I thank them so much or they jump on and they say they like the podcast or they watch the show and it was awesome or whatever. I like to thank them, but in.

on book tour, you get to thank them in person. You get to shake their hand, look them in the eye and sincerely thank them in person because they're the reason that I get to do what I love, which is right. So I absolutely love it. I love the questions. I love the questions that I get. I love the interaction with everyone and it's just, it's so much fun for me. It seems like it's fun for other people out there. That's why I have these t -shirts out there now that are eighties rock band inspired.

The Thriller Zone with David Temple (11:01.678)
Book tour t -shirts. I don't think I've ever seen a book tour t -shirt but I had that idea last tour because it was like a party atmosphere in the in the book tour at the book tour stop so Did that this year and it's just it's just a blast I thought it was funny I was watching you on Instagram this morning and you're standing there with a stack of your cases and so forth on your books and you and you Open the shirt and you go. Yeah book tour a t -shirt no one in the history of writing has ever done this and I went

I'm going to ask him about that. Is that really true? That is a cool idea. Yeah, I don't know if that's true or not. I just, it just came to me in the moment. My wife was filming me. I needed to say something and it just seemed like a natural thing to say because I've never heard of it.

I've never never seen it. So yeah, it was just fun We were just on book tour David Brown was with me there from Simon & Schuster We had that photographer with a backdrop like the red carpet type thing I think more more efficient for people with photos and and signatures and all that stuff and it was just fun It was just a blast so I thought you know Why don't we step things up a little bit and and not just have this atmosphere here? But have a way to celebrate it in advance during and after as well. So the 80s rock band inspired

book tour t -shirts called the Take Warning Tour. So, I came up with that too. So, Red Sky Morning, it's a Sailor Take Warning, of course. The Take Warning Book Tour 2024. Get your shirt now. Before I jump off to number, question number two, I thought of you, I was working out in the gym the other day and I thought about you because I had on your t -shirt, the one that I wore last time we were together with your Cross Tomahawks, and I'm just working out my own business. Guy walks back and he does this. Jack Garfan, huh?

And I'm like, yeah, like you got a favorite he goes Terminalist started there didn't it and walks away and I'm like, whoa, come here a second. It was the When you get moments like that and it's just an emblem There's no words, you know that you you've really woven in and branded yourself. So good Alright, let's take a 60 second break and when we come back Jack will explain the story behind those two crossed tomahawks and where that came from stay with us

The Thriller Zone with David Temple (13:11.342)
And now back to the show. Well, yeah, I mean, I didn't really think about it in those terms. Well, when I started, I just took these two tomahawks that I had lying next to my desk in Coronado, California, and realized that, you know, why don't I have a, you know, Apple has a has a symbol. It's an apple. So if I'm starting this next chapter in life and there's a product like there is with Apple, maybe I should have a little symbol, too.

And so I took these two tomahawks and I gave them, there were gifts to my kids, which is why they're right there at my retirement ceremony. So I gave my kids a Bible and an old nautical compass and told them, hey, these are, these are to guide you. Gave them a leather bound copy of the constitution and bill of rights. And then I handed them the tomahawk, the Winkler tomahawk. I said, here's the means to defend them. And so I had three tomahawks there. Took two, put them on the ground, crossed them, took a picture of it and thought, this is it. This is it. Cause my character already had that. I'd already written the book by that.

by that point and I knew that my character needed something. Being a child of the 80s with a Rambo knife, which is not in first blood by the way, that was something that they developed for the show. Stallone knew the importance of props and hence the Rambo survival knife that we all love. And so I thought, well, I can't do the knife, that's been done already. But what about Tomahawk? What about something that symbolizes that my character is a student of warfare?

but also this ancient weapon is made using modern techniques. And there it was right there, lying right next to my desk as a gift to my kids. So that became the symbol. Somebody stopped yesterday, stopped one of my director of e -commerce now. So I have a couple of people helping me out with things now, my wife with things now, because we're juggling so much. So someone stopped her in the store the other day too. She has had a t -shirt on a new one with crossed -omahawks, and someone stopped her as well. So that's pretty cool.

See that is so awesome and so good and I love it when something Organic happens and you're like i'm just being it's kind of like back to earlier comment about the love of the story in the heart of it i'm just this is just what i'm doing I dig this and then all of a sudden you step back for the 30 000 view and you're like that's that's it right there. And that's what you've done with that symbol and so awesome I want to here's question number two.

The Thriller Zone with David Temple (15:31.022)
And I'm gonna stop back saying it's hard to believe because you just made a reference in it triggered triggered my mind It was March of 2018 When the terminal list dropped I met you the next spring summer at Thriller Fest 2019 and I'm thinking look what you've done in six years I mean, it's do you ever just kind of pinch yourself? It's it's somewhat rhetorical and just go Wow, who would have thought of course you would have thought in the back your mind But you know what I'm saying?

Not yet, because this gets back to our earlier portion of our conversation about the imposter syndrome. And so I did think, I did think that this was, I mean, I never thought for a moment that I knew it was a possibility that I'd fail in BUDs and that's part of the draw going into Seel.

It's a draw to test yourself. It's been something that I think has been part of the Society in general and civilization in general is having a test for young men That's why so many people are drawn to Marine Corps boot camp It's in the DNA and you used to have to prove your value to the tribe In order to be accepted into that tribe at a certain age So whether that's 12 13 14 15 16 17 there are different ages throughout history where that has been a kind of part of your evolution But that's a very natural thing to want to do so it's so I knew it was a

possibility that I would fail, but I prepared myself as much as I possibly could so that I knew that I would not leave anything on the field. So same thing with this. I knew I wanted to do it from the youngest of ages and I've been preparing myself the whole way as a student by reading all these books, but not necessarily knowing that these great authors of the 80s and 90s and 70s, 60s even, were preparing me for that future. I was just enjoying the magic in those pages, but they were really my professors in the art of storytelling.

So I had this foundation and I wasn't reading those guys back then thinking, ooh, how am I gonna do this one day? No, it was just about the magic. At those young ages, 11, 12, 13, 14, 15, 16, 17, 18, you don't yet have this experience and this cynicism and these filters that kind of build up over time, distractions, responsibilities. My only job was to probably not be annoying to my parents and quiet for a little bit and escape into the pages of a novel. And so that all became a part of me.

The Thriller Zone with David Temple (17:47.95)
And I say that at the end of the book, you're probably, I try to thank as many authors as I possibly can who built this foundation for me and the acknowledgements, but there's probably quite a few that I don't even know influence me because they're so ingrained in me as who I am as a person that I forget that I even need to, that I should acknowledge them because they're just a part of me. And so I don't even make that connection. It's so closely connected to who I am as a person. So.

So I don't take the time to breathe and yet anyway and take a breath. I mean, I'm just so thankful every single day and feel so fortunate. I've always felt so fortunate. I felt like that won the lottery that I was just born in this country as soon as I could conceptualize something like that at an early age. So I feel like we have the options and opportunities in this country that are not available anywhere else in the world. And I recognize that early on. My grandfather was killed in World War II. That's probably a part of it.

realizing that he sacrificed this for me and for my generation to be able to go out and join the military or not pursue whatever dream we may have. So we got that in this country by being born here, regardless of circumstance. I've heard Larry Ellison talk about what I mentioned in the book say that he had all the disadvantages necessary for success. Such a great lie. It is and I love that. And it means obviously,

that nothing's going to be handed to you, but you have the opportunity to build something for yourself, no matter your circumstance, in this country. And so that's a very long way of me saying that I haven't yet taken the time to pinch myself and say, geez, who would have thought? Because I thought so from a very early age. That might sound fantastical as well, but I can't lie here and be that guy I just talked about earlier and lie about it and say that, I didn't think anybody would ever want to read my stuff.

No, number one, I will never ask that question again so that I won't have to put you on that spot. But here's the thing, because really what I was saying, and I'm going to clarify that in the next question, is that it's not, were you surprised? It's more about how much are you enjoying it? Because I thought about this as I was writing notes, I'm like, okay, seven number one New York Times bestsellers are pretty damn close to it. An online store that's just rocking, a TV series, a podcast, a...

The Thriller Zone with David Temple (20:02.67)
And then of course in my really important scale of life, you know, family of four, excellent health, great friends around you. So it kind of comes down to what is your, what are you most excited about these days? And this is just me, Dave, asking my buddy Jack, not about the books, just about life in general, because it's such a joy to watch from a distance. Thank you. And you know, it's interesting because they're not separate. They're not separate things.

I'm doing what I love. I'm following my calling. So it's not like it's separate from me, if that makes sense. So it's not like I'm standing here and saying, look at this other thing that's happened that has, you know, whatever, anybody thinks of success or not or whatever. It's not a separate entity that I can look over at and say, hey, look at that. That's doing really well. You know, it's not like, hey, look at my Post -it Note company. That thing's taken off. And then look at this other thing. It's like, it's such, it's tied so closely.

to me and who I am and it's a profession like we talked about that it's not a separate entity. So it's not something that I can really disassociate from and look at. And I look at things strategically, of course, but that's more strategic planning and when I want to write this book or that book or do this project or that project or so that, but that's still a part of me. It's not something separate. So it's which makes it very personal as well. I hope then comes across in the art form through the writing.

because it is not something that I'm just doing to make money or it's not something, it's just what I love and it's that profession and it's who I am. So just like being a SEAL, same thing, I was so devoted to that for all those years and so devoted to this, now there's no separation if that makes sense. It makes total sense and one other thing that I wanted to mention that I thought I was...

Ruminating on that this morning. I thought it's so cool that you're working on a nonfiction book and the last time we talked You said it was in the horizon and I don't want to take too much time off of that But I made this note to myself how cool is that a guy who loves history as much as you do and is a student of warfare as you are Writing a book about one of the most important moments in our life with Beirut and I'm just like I'm so excited about when that book comes out It's September of this year, right?

The Thriller Zone with David Temple (22:21.646)
Right, September of this year, it's done. Very interesting now just going through the legal side of the house with photos, just trying to get submissions from everyone and trying to make sure that that's all buttoned up, very different obviously than the fiction side. But I had a list of events that I wanted to explore in the nonfiction space. And it was very clear to me that starting with Marine Barracks bombing 1983, Beirut, Lebanon was the place to start. Because one for me, it was...

so impactful because I was so young. I remember the Time magazine cover, the Newsweek magazine cover. I remember our newspaper. I remember it being on the news. I remember that. And then also the shadow of that event continues to influence foreign policy today. And there hasn't been the seminal work on it yet. There's been a couple people have written some things in the past, but nothing that's that one thing that you point to and say, this is the book you have to read to understand that event.

So there's also been some recently declassified documents from the Reagan administration that haven't been written about before that allows you to get an idea of what was going on in the executive branch during that time. Who's advocating to put Marines ashore in Lebanon? Who wanted to keep them on ships in the Med? So it was for me, that was the one to start with. And so not just to me, but the nation. And I really want to capture those lessons learned so we don't have to relearn those lessons in blood. We're not very good in this country at taking lessons from the past.

and turning them into wisdom going forward. We don't do that very well. So this is something that I can do to help preserve some of those lessons. Yeah. Well, I'm really looking forward to that. But as we start to wrap, because I know you're on a super tight schedule, and I again, thank you for squeezing me in here. I know you have a prevailing theme in all of your books. And I'm wondering, I have a hint of an idea, but I'd love to hear it in your words, kind of that theme, takeaway, heartbeat.

Moral of the story with Ritz guy morning Yes, each of the book has a has a theme I got that from Steven Pressfield and that's really been a guiding I think it's helped a lot with edits because coming back from Simon Schuster There's been very few content edits most of those are along the lines of hate explain this a little bit more for someone who wasn't in the military or Explain this a little bit more for someone who hasn't read the six previous books like those are the typical things that I that I would get and they're not very many of those and

The Thriller Zone with David Temple (24:42.99)
And I think that's because I have this theme and I write it on a yellow sticky. I keep it next to the computer and that guides the writing process. So everything that I write has to come back to that theme, either directly or more importantly, indirectly. So for this, it was loyalty and questions of loyalty. And that really, that helped guide the writing process. And I explore that question really through the geopolitical events that transpire in the book, vis -a -vis the United States, China, Taiwan, and this new

emerging autonomous control of certain military assets. And I focus on naval assets primarily in this book, but not exclusively and where that's going. Because if you look at the last 20 years and the technological innovation, the pace of technological innovation, how rapid that has been, just think about the next 20 years when we're talking about AI and quantum computing and then in the military space, how you use that tool in defense or offense.

So that's that were some of the questions that I wanted to look at in the book But that underlying theme of loyalty is is the basis for everything that happens and it's right there up to the last paragraph That's all I'm gonna say by the way, I do want to I'd love to deep dive on that. We have like three minutes remaining So we'll have to do it another time But I know that your podcast danger close will probably and boy I would love to pick your brain on AI especially as a

revolves revolves around the military and the way that technology is moving so rapidly, but we'll i'll tune into your podcast for that How about that? But I do want to close with the same thing. We've closed with it before sometimes it changes with authors. Sometimes it doesn't I would be a loser if I didn't circle back to the same question your best writing advice I know you got a killer one. Hmm. I forget what I've told what I said in the past. So hopefully it's the same

or similar anyway, but Brad Thor passed me this one and he got it from someone I read it was from someone else in the in the 70s. But they said the difference between a published author and published author is that the published author never quit. So that stuck with me as I started down this path because same thing with with buds or something with life in general. There's that and then write it if you write it for your bedside table, write it for nobody else but you don't think about marketing agents is for first time authors.

The Thriller Zone with David Temple (27:07.822)
publishers, social media presence, anything else that takes up bandwidth because all that bandwidth needs to go into making the story, that book, that narrative the best that it can possibly be. So get it to that stage first before you start worrying about anything else. No, that's so solid. What did I say last time? Very, very, very close to that. I just always like to re -ask it because I have to close every show with it because people tune in for it. But it's so good. And

And it begs this question. I have so many people get on the show. Hey, Dave, what do you think? Should I be on Facebook? Should it be on Twitter, Instagram? I'm like, how about you just spend the time worrying about getting the words on the page and let all that other stuff follow you along. Yeah, but I hear at this conference, the agency says this, you should have a platform. I'm like, you know what? My theory is follow the heart, the passion, get the words out, do it the best you can. That other stuff's going to follow. The product has to be the best that it could possibly be.

None of the other stuff matters. It's like if your iPhone doesn't work when you pull it out of that packaging, the packaging, all the work that went into that packaging, the amazing work, time, energy, and effort that went into that packaging, that doesn't matter either. But you have to have both. But first, it has to be about that product, then all the supporting efforts. So in military terminology, for anybody who spent some time in uniform, that's the main effort. And then the others are the supporting efforts. So you've got to get that main effort right.

Yep. All right, folks, if you'd like to attend Jack's book tours, which is launching right now, or if you'd like to just learn more, visit officialjackcar .com right here on the screen. Jack, once again, it is always a pleasure and an honor. Thank you for all that you're doing for our service, for our entertainment needs, taking care of your family, living your dream. Thank you so much. I always love talking to you. You always have the best questions and we have great conversations. I look forward to it every year. And thanks for all you do.

Hopefully I'll see you in person soon. I hope so. Thank you, Jack. Take care. Thanks, Jack. Always a thrill hanging out with a legend in the making. Now, folks, let's jump ahead to next week's show when I meet Kendra Elliott and Melinda Lee to discuss their new thriller, Echo Road. That's next Monday right here on The Thriller Zone.