New York Times Bestselling Author Meg Gardiner and The Challenges of Researching Dark Subjects

The Thriller Zone with David Temple (00:00.398)

Hello and welcome to the Thriller Zone. I'm your host David Temple here on episode 185 as we come to the conclusion of three years of the podcast. Hard to believe. I get to welcome back for a three -peat performance the beautiful, the talented, the smart, the eloquent, the New York Times best -selling author Meg Gardner.

Yes, I could gush forever, but why do that when we could be talking to her? So I'll shut up, step aside, and please welcome Meg Gardner. How are you? I'm very good. How is my dear friend? I'm well, thanks. I just was going to mute my phone and notice that it says tornado watch issued. So this may get a little sporty.

Wow. You leave that alarm on so that we can hear that coming. Does that happen often out your way? Not that often, but apparently, well, I mean, Houston got hit by that terrible storm last week. It was blasting rain at us and then it just had no place to go except to accelerate across the coastal plain for 150 miles and try to blow down skyscrapers. So, we'll see. That would be kind of a fun little additional thing here. Chief meteorologist Meg Gardner in the AccuWeather Center.

The Thriller Zone with David Temple (01:35.598)
yeah. No, you look fantastic. Yeah, there you go. Okay. You'll notice over here over my little over my shoulder. What's that? It's way back there though, isn't it? okay. No, I was looking at the, your artwork. You know who that is? You should know who you'll know who that is. It's hard for me to tell. Who is it? It's Peter Max. Peter Max. Okay.

Yes.

Back when daddy was making money on the radio. Back when daddy had a real job in making coin, he bought a Peter Max because he always loved him. Wow. Cool. Anyway. All right. Okay. So how do you want to do this? What do you mean how we're already rolling? I mean, you know, you know me. You know, how long do you want to want to give it's here? I have an hour set for you. I generally aim for like,

35, 40, 45, but with you, you know, if all, are you on a pressure? No, stepping on the cloud situation.

Let me go find my red shoes. Hang on. Jesus. No, we'll just have some fun. And I got so many things to talk about, so many things to share with you. I appreciate you doing this, as do so many other authors. This is great for us. It's great for us as writers and for readers and us as readers. So I am happy.

The Thriller Zone with David Temple (03:19.982)
I am glad that you are in a place to want to be able to do this. Yes, well, I wanted to really, and this is deeper on that, is I really wanted to sit down face to face because you saw, you probably, I don't know if you saw the session with Don. It was fantastic. It was fantastic. There's nothing, Meg, in the world like sitting down breathing the same air. And I did something different on that particular show because he's always talking in sound bites. I wanted to make sure he had plenty of time to just.

Go off on tangents if you wanted to, especially knowing this is the end of his tour. Hello to the woman who Stephen King says she's written the finest crime suspense series in the last 20 years. How is that for a great big howdy -do? I still haven't picked myself up off the floor after hearing that. So hey, it's great to be here. Yeah. I mean, Stephen King, he's written a few books. He kind of knows what he's talking about. And Meg, it's just.

Fabulous to once again see you. I mean, it's such always an honor and thank you. Thanks. It was my pleasure. Really, it's always great to talk to you. So I'm happy to have the chance to do it. And for those folks who did not hear at the beginning, Meg is currently under a tornado watch. Is that right? Chief meteorologist Meg Gardner? I am. I am in Austin, Texas where our weather warning radar has alerted us to.

be ready for some excitement this afternoon. Probably nothing, but it's always just kind of like make sure that we're wide awake and ready to go. Bananas. Well, let's take a little peek at this little bad girl right here. Shadow, well, you can see I've done a little homework. I got lots to say about this, Meg. And this is a, for those folks listening, I'm flashing a book with little purple markers to make sure I get a few points made. But I do want to get caught up.

We're going to talk about Shadowheart in a minute, but I want to get caught up. Are there any new additions to the home, Frong? We're going to do just a little bit of house cleaning. Either last time or the time before we chatted, your house had caught fire. So I'm trying to remember. Right. Yes, we had a car, essentially our car, blew up in the garage and burned much of the house down. So we were out of the house for a year while it was rebuilt.

The Thriller Zone with David Temple (05:42.67)
And we are now back home, overjoyed to be here. I've got my bookshelves back. I've got my office back. We've got the oak trees outside. They survived and it's wonderful to be home. The house is great if hadn't been for the trauma, the nightmare. This would be like perfect. Now let's not even talk about that tornado that's whirling somewhere nearby because tragedy number two would not be well. No, no, no.

Let's see, congratulations on all the heat, pun intended, behind your collaboration with Michael Mann. I mean, I see it over your right shoulder. I mean, just craziness. Well, thank you. It's been a real thrill ride as an author to have collaborated with one of my icons on this book that was received so...

eagerly and rapturously by readers. It's just been fantastic. Man, I mean, you are living the literal dream. Well, yeah, from when I was eight years old and drawing pictures of ponies and trying to tell people that I was going to be a writer. So yeah, surprise. God, I'd love to have one of those ponies on my wall right now next to Peter Max. Wouldn't that be fun? And speaking of...

Speaking of, I heard from our mutual friend and your Story Factory bandmate, if you will, Donna Winslow, that he too was recently on Jeopardy. Did I hear that right? You did. It was a talk about an elevated moment in my life. He too was a question on the Jeopardy Masters tournament last week. And this is like the circle of life for me. I...

I'm a Jeopardy champion. Right. So.

The Thriller Zone with David Temple (07:43.694)
Having that in my life has always been so much fun. And then to find out that something that I am part of, that he too was a question on Jeopardy. This is kind of like, I, you know, knock me over with a fence post and I'm just gonna lie there with the little birdies circling over my head. It's like the completion of my trivia life. Yeah, wow.

That is just what it's circle of life is the best way to put that. That's crazy. Now. Okay. another housekeeping point I want to know, cause one of your, one of the favorite things, one of the, one of the few reasons I go to X slash Twitter these days is for this very reason. And I want to know, I want one of your recent more favorite, if that's, that's not even proper, English, your favorite crime headlines of the day. Cause I go there for these and they always make me giggle. Do you have a favorite?

Gosh, it may be the Florida man wearing only underwear and an ankle monitor arrested after joyriding in a stolen $100 ,000 boat and crashing it on a beach. There's so much to understand. Thank you, that's sad. I mean, that's...

It's the little giggles of the day that just get me, you have to say, you scratch your head, and we're gonna get to real stuff here in a second, but you gotta scratch your head going, what was this guy, what was this gal thinking when they woke up this morning and decided this would be a good idea? Right, that's the whole point of doing it is that we better find things to laugh about in this life. And I always make sure to pick something where,

I tried to make sure that nobody has ever really been hurt in these events, that if it can involve some kind of bizarre animal or underwear, it's generally just sillier and funnier. So it's enjoyable for me. Okay. And the very last thing I want, I saw you on, I think it was, it might've been yesterday or the day before sporting your new Shadowheart book.

The Thriller Zone with David Temple (09:59.406)
tour series Shades. Yeah, dang it. They're in the other room. But I want to see those. I'm going to wait. Go ahead. I'll. OK, hang on. Please do. Yes, thank you. We're going to take a little microscopic break for a sip of fresh espresso while Meg gets her shit.

See, this is one of the reasons you listen to the show, because it's just off the beaten path. You know? Look at all those books. And little Mr. Edgar sitting there. you look so good. Sorry, I was trying to be serious here for a moment. Yeah. Okay. Yeah, that is good. Only you, Meg, only you.

When does, before we get into that, what is the tour look like? When does it start? Where do you go? Just give us - It's still being finalized, but I will be going on tour. I will be posting all the dates on my website blog online. But some of the nation's favorite bookstores, I hope, will be getting a visit from me. And it will be in, starting around the publication date, June 18th. Okay. So that's as much as I can say. Sorry to keep you in suspense, but -

That is my job kind of. So if I were to ask you a very specific particular bookstore of which we are both big fans and is, I don't know, kind of down the street for me, you couldn't mention that. I couldn't, I couldn't mention it. You couldn't mention that. Okay. Well, you can trust me to spread the news when that becomes official. Thank you. Okay. First of all, this is the fourth Unsub. Unsub, Into the Black Nowhere and Dark Corners of the Night. I remember when Unsub started and I was like,

my goodness. And I, of course, had read your earlier stuff. And I thought, I really like this Caitlin Hendricks. And I like this, where this is going. So the first one was fantastic. The second one comes along and I'm like, maybe even a little bit better. Third one comes along. my God, she did it again. And now with this one, and I try not to be too verbose or appear cheesy, but this is your best work yet. And I loved this book. Thank you. Thank you.

The Thriller Zone with David Temple (12:15.47)
It means so much for me to hear that. Still, it means so much for me to hear that people love the book. Meg, it is, and I would say this as though you were not even sitting there. Folks, this is a, in my opinion, this is my opinion, a master class. It really, truly is, and the memos, notes here prove it, is a master class in how to write a page turning thriller. Good. Yeah.

I want to let that sink in because I mean that. I'm, as you know, I read a lot of books and some of them are good. Some of them are really good, but then comes along and this is, this one is flat out great. And, and, and I, I read and I, I research, I read very specifically with you because you're one of my favorite writers. So yeah, I'm in my geek zone. All right. So just bear with me. And here's why, and, and correct me if I'm wrong. Has your.

mechanics or style shifted even the smallest between three and now four, because something feels like it has, and I've got a point to make after you answer that.

It may have, and I imagine it will shift more with whatever it is I'm writing next. And before you say anything, I actually had drafted Shadowheart before I wrote Heat 2, but now having written Heat 2, which expanded my vision of ways to write thrillers, I imagine going forward it will show. I've...

I have more room to run different ways to do it, but yes, I did deliberately, I'm trying not to be spoilery here. I, I wanted to, write an unsub novel, which is about Caitlin Hendricks and FBI agent who's hunting serial predators without it being, just another standard procedural. Okay. Cause here's what I'm getting at. There is a.

The Thriller Zone with David Temple (14:23.47)
There is a tightness and a brevity and a succinctness. It's like, it's as though, and I'm glad to know now that this was written before Heat because Heat was an expansive novel. This is so tight and it's as though you wrote it and then you trimmed it and you wrote it and then you trimmed it again and then you took the big knife and trimmed off any fat right down to the bone. So I don't want to over...

point that, but that's what this feels like. Well, I'm glad you feel like it's as lean as it needs to be, because anytime I look at one of my books, I always think I can find more to trim. But you don't want it to become skeletal. It has to live. It has to breathe. So, good. Yeah, and I don't want to belabor the technique. However, you know, it's clocking at around 376, which is, you know, right in the pocket, but it's a little bit longer than

average perhaps in some ways, but it doesn't feel that way. It moves so quickly. So I'm going to, I got it just a couple of points. If you'll, are you cool with me doing this? I, as long as you don't throw it out the window. Yeah. No, like my very first note is I'm, I'm well into it and I'm like, and I, and I scribbled this note to myself cause I'm like, this means something to me. You're in between scene setups are so succinct and descriptive without being overly wrought with extraneous detail.

That's a craft.

Well, I've been doing this for a little while. I hope that I would be honing my craft as I go along and that it feels noticeable to an educated reader is really valuable to me. Yeah, and I'm feeling a little bit like a geek right now, so maybe I'll bounce off of this in a second. Just geek way, please. OK, good. So my next point was this, and I put a bracket around it because listen to this, folks. Lights and skyscrapers rose around her.

The Thriller Zone with David Temple (16:24.27)
Headlights, taxis, changing lanes like goldfish, darting, sliding, nearly taking the skin off city buses and bike messengers. As she drove, she tried anew to put the pieces of the case together.

Can readers or listeners guess where this is that scene is set? I got a pretty good idea. Yeah. I mean, come on. All you got to do is say city buses and bike messengers and you know, it's Manhattan, right? Right. Yeah. And that's not giving anything away. No. All right. One more geek out. I did a great big yellow. What the f -

Here's why, because I'm like, folks, bear with me a second. Reading Meg's books is, first of all, it's entertaining, it's educational, and she's the, you're one of the few writers. I got a pretty good vocabulary, thanks to my mom, who forced me to read the Webster's dictionary over dinner out loud to the family.

God help us. But you always have at least one word. That's why I went, what the fuck? I have no idea what this word is. I had to look at a daguerreotype. Yeah, it's an old photograph. It's an old photographic method from the 19th century, right? So. Now you say that like, well, David, everyone has what a daguerreotype. My daughter's an historian. What can I say? Well, it was brilliant. OK, that's one more and I'm done and I'm moving on. But I have reasons for all of it.

Okay, so in case you haven't read about FBI Special Agent Caitlin Hendricks, in case you haven't folks, and this is maybe your first one, and you're going to start, you might want to, well, I'd say start at number one, but you definitely got to get this one in your shelf. If you want to know what our protagonist is to the core, Caitlin knew she could cross the line from relentless pursuit to dangerous obsession.

The Thriller Zone with David Temple (18:19.438)
Her dad, legendary homicide detective Mack Hendricks, had crossed it and spent decades lost beyond the border. That's a great way to size up your gal. thank you. She is one of those people. I think I've mentioned this to you before, and I feel like I'm talking more than you are, but I'm thinking of, help me, here we go, alphabet series. Kinsey Milhoan, Sue Grafton's books. Sue Grafton. I started A4.

Alibi maybe it was in I don't know what year it was, but that's when I first said a female detective PI in that genre. my god. And so when I read you, I have memories, pleasant memories of that association. Your writing is different. You know, that, that strong female protagonist, I love it. Thank you. Well, that's, that's a real compliment. Sue Grafton.

was a hometown hero. She was from Santa Barbara as was I. So we all adored her. And those books convinced me that maybe there was room for me in modern crime and thriller and suspense. So it was a revelation to pick up A is for Alibi and not want to put it down or any of the other books.

And what a sad fact that she never could finish the alphabet. I'm trying to remember, was it W, X, Y, Z? Was it around? It ended with Y. Yeah. Anyway, let's do this. Let's take a short break, put our hankies away, grab something beverage to drink, check the meteorological forecast. We're going to take a short break, let our sponsor say something, and we'll be right back with Meg Gardner right after this.

I can tell you a story about when I thought I was stalking Sue Grafton on the freeway. Good, that's a great way to come back. I want to talk more about Michael Mann for a number of reasons and then we're going to finish with some rapid -fire questions. You're one of the few people I do this anymore because you're the only person that has fun with me. Everyone's like, I don't know the answer. You're making it up. Just go with it. All right.

The Thriller Zone with David Temple (20:35.246)
And welcome back. I'm with Meg Gardner, author of Shadowheart, a fantastic read you're going to absolutely want to put in your TBR list. And Meg, welcome back. Thank you for joining us. Always. Anytime. You've got a little story, a little secret story up your sleeve. I do. We were talking about Sue Grafton, my hometown hero. I had stood in line outside Chaucer's books in Santa Barbara many times as a just total fangirl. And...

One day in the 90s, I was driving up US 101 in my Honda Accord with my three children in car seats in the back. And this Mercedes came whipping past me in the fast lane and the license plate read THNX KNZ. Thanks, Kinsey.

And I thought, that is Sue Grafton. I didn't even think about it. I just smashed my foot to the floor, took off, and was trying to catch up. I have no idea what I thought I was gonna do when I caught up. I was gonna go, you know, I love you, or something like this, honk, or force her off the road. I drove past my exit. The kids are in the back going, mommy, what's?

And I pulled up slowly, it's like, that was a Mercedes and I'm in this Honda. And I slowly, slowly, slowly draw alongside and I turn and it's her husband. So I just slowly backed off. It never occurred to me that she would be doing more signings at Chaucer's books in a few months, or much less that I would ever get the chance to meet her in person and to apologize to her husband years later.

that wacko. You know that crazy woman who was stalking you like behind the steering wheel? That was mad.

The Thriller Zone with David Temple (22:38.35)
bananas, that's hilarious. See, it's so nice. And see, I love this about you, Meg. You allow us to see the fun side of you. Like everyone goes, these authors are such stars. And of course you are. But you have the same geek out moments we all do. And that's just so neat. Well, of course it is. Why else would I be so happy to be a writer and get a chance to meet some of the people who have inspired me all these years? Yeah. Jeez. All right.

I do want to, I want to circle back to something because I, I, it felt like I kind of bounced over it, but I'm talking to John Katzenbach and we're talking about his new book, Jack's Boys. And we went off on this whole tangent about movies and Michael Mann become, became the center of attention. And we talked all about Michael Mann.

And we were talking about how interesting it is, how powerful movies are and how they strike a chord in both our memory banks and our senses and they never leave us. So of course, I'm going to go back to one of my all time favorite movies for a number of reasons, and which was heat. And we were talking specifically Meg about the shootout in downtown LA and how crazy that was.

But I want to make sure that we dive down a little bit deeper because to be able to go up to another childhood hero of yours, Michael Mann, and talk about collaborating on Heat 2, knowing that a movie is in the making on the offing and the horizon, tell me what that feels like. Just take me through that.

I was fortunate to get to spend essentially two years with all the characters from Heat side by side with me as I went through every day, every evening, thinking about them, visualizing them. Part of the challenge of writing Heat 2 as a novel is that the movie is so powerful and Michael is so

The Thriller Zone with David Temple (24:50.766)
brilliant and has such a depth of understanding about how cinema works as a whole. The acting, the script, the direction, the cinematography, the score, which all hits us as viewers simultaneously when we're in a theater. It's pouring over us. It's an emotional experience. So writing the sequel slash prequel as a novel, how

we going to replicate that richness of experience when the story is on the page? I think we succeeded. As I mentioned, language, dialogue, scene setting, description, the rhythm of speech, the pace, everything that you've got to kind of make sure that the readership is there with you feeling like

like Chris Chihurlis is, you know, they're on his shoulder the whole time, that they're with Hannah when he's out blasting through the Illinois cornfields at midnight with his lights off, whatever is going on. And the thought that I will get to see the story on the screen is extraordinarily exciting, needless to say. So it would be, movies are a different medium.

that's a different arena, which is why we decided that we need to collaborate on the book. I mean, Michael's an extremely experienced writer. He's extraordinarily accomplished. He too was his first novel, though. He has a degree in English from the University of Wisconsin. And he had a master's from the London Film Institute. But...

He was writing his first novel. I was collaborating on my first big project. So it was, it was a wonderful challenge, let's put it that way. And I am, I am, I am just giggling with, with anticipation, imagining how, what it, what it would be like to see it on the screen. Well, I am counting the weeks until he too hits a big screen. And I think to myself, you, I mean, books are forever. I got that.

The Thriller Zone with David Temple (27:13.966)
Movies are forever too. So to be able to have two strikes, two check marks in those columns of having a book and a film now, and to be able to sit back and see your words come to life, it's just crazy. By the way, do we, I mean, right? Yes. And it struck home for me. I spoke at the Public Library Association National Conference about HEAT a couple of years ago.

And so someone came up to me afterwards and brought it home to some. She said, so you just spent 18 months with 1990s Val Kilmer in your head day and night, didn't you? I said, yes, I did. Yes, I did. So she goes, I'm there already. I'm ordering this for my library. Such a stud, man.

Do we have any idea when the movie will be ready for us to stock up on the popcorn and kick back and relax and watch it? No, I'm not involved with the Warner Brothers or what's going on with all that. But it's progressing. You have no insides, Goof, that you can tell us. That's what you're saying. That's correct. OK. All right. So now let's jump back to Shadowheart before we wrap. And that is, I want to know.

And of course it feels like a logical question, so bear with me a second, but I'm, you know, and I know what research, I know what research is and what it takes to research things, but I'm trying to put myself in the mind of Meg Gardner and think, what does research look like and feel like and affect you like when you're spending so much time developing stories around sicko serial killers?

I make sure that I get outside into the sunshine that I exercise, that I spend time with my family and friends. I try to get into the headspace of the characters, but I try not to let it pull me in too deeply. Because the books are not, they're about Caitlin, who's a profiler, you know, hunting unknown subjects. And in this case, she's after a...

The Thriller Zone with David Temple (29:38.446)
a copycat killer who's in some kind of twisted rivalry with a murderer who's already behind bars. So we've got two dark subjects that she has to investigate. But you know what? In the evening there's always, you know, Frasier reruns, 30 Rock, or you know, Dateline. Right, right, right. It's so funny because I...

What I liked about this book more than the others, perhaps, is the fact that you do have these dual worlds going. Well, you've got the Caitlin world and her and her relationship with her boyfriend. And then you've got the memory of her father that kind of influences the way she works. Then you have these two psychopaths simultaneously. So it's so rich and deep and action packed, of course, that you...

you never get lost because of... Yeah, you spend a lot of time here and you're like, well, what a sicko. And then you transition over here and it's anyway, folks, in case you haven't figured it out by now, this is a book you want to pick up. Yeah. Have I made that point clear enough? Yeah. Now you're one of the few people, one of the few authors that I like to play a little game called rapid fire questions, cause it's just good, silly fun. And you always play well with me. So look, can we just kind of do this before we wrap the show? Okay.

Yes, let me crack my knuckles. Ready to go. It's way easier than Jeopardy for crying out loud. I'm the guy that sits at home going, huh? All right, let's set the stage by saying a very classic easy one while writing Coffee or Tea. Coffee. In the background, music or silence? Silence for the first draft, music for editing. why is that?

I like soundtracks, pick a pace, and often when I'm doing a second, third, fourth draft, whatever, I know that I'm trying to distill and get rid of the fat and see how to make sure that the pace is going along. So music or just soundtracks off of Amazon Music, 90s dark metal.

The Thriller Zone with David Temple (32:02.254)
or incubus is really good. Wow. Or the nine inch nails, Trent Reznor. Yeah. Wow. She's got a dark side, folks. All right. Number three, after a long day of hard writing, wine or beer or a stiff cocktail? Wine. And I think it's a white wine and it's a French wine. And you turned me on to it and it's not Socturne, but it is a... Is it Sancerre? Sancerre. There you go.

And folks, that is a tasty one, I feel like wine. I'm glad you enjoy it. And finally, given a choice to step into these shoes for a week or a month, don't overthink this, a week, a month, a year, and given all the magic that it automatically requires, it all falls in your lap, would you rather be an FBI special agent like Caitlin or a movie director like Michael Mann?

The Thriller Zone with David Temple (33:00.494)
It might be easier to deal with the people you're around for Caitlin, but my gosh, it would be so fantastic to have a glimpse of doing what Michael Mann is able to do. Very well done. Golf club. Nice. All right, and as you know, I always close with the standard question. I'd be curious if it's changed or altered or remained the same or tightened up much like your writing has done.

What's your best writing advice to our aspiring writers? Gosh, I don't know what I've said before, but I would say put your rear end in the chair and finish your stuff. Finish it. Do it. And then you can move on to something else. There you go. Because it doesn't get done if you don't start it, right? Correct. Now, if this were in a family -friendly show, what would you say?

Sit your ass down and type that shit. There you go. All right, well, folks, if you want to learn more, go to Meggardener .com. Of course, it's Shadowheart. I would beg you to read the... Just go ahead and buy all four books in the series. You want to start with number one, and it's going to give you such a great historical background to Caitlin. Sets the speed and the pace and the joy. And by the time you get to Shadowheart, which you'll get to rather quickly,

You're going to be in love. Meg, as always. Thank you. David, this is wonderful, as always, and I appreciate your love of books and my books in particular. It's always wonderful to get a chance to talk to you. Thank you so much.

Yeah, there's one of my favorites, people and authors. Folks, can you believe that next Monday literally marks the three -year anniversary of the Thriller Zone? Big applause. I mean, come on. Three years ago Monday.

The Thriller Zone with David Temple (35:03.31)
I was sitting down with a gal who wrote a book called The Hunting Wives. That's right, May Cobb. And I recall exactly where I was. I was up at Lake Tahoe, hanging out with my wife and just enjoying life in Bliss Town. my God, if you've never been there, check it out. But it was a great little kickoff and a launch to the Thriller Zone. Now here we are, fast forward three years later.

May Cobb is coming back. Hey folks, not only did she have that book turned into a TV series, hello, but she has come out with a new book that is smashing called The Hollywood Assistant. So I want you to join me Monday as we celebrate year number three and probably episode 186. I'm David Temple, your host. I'll see you next time for another edition of The Thriller Zone.