Scott Carson and The Power of Voice in Writing

The Thriller Zone with David Temple

Hello and welcome to the Thriller Zone. I'm your host David Temple and on today's 178th episode I am so happy to welcome Scott Carson author of lost man's lane. Let's get into the Thriller Zone By the way, I genuinely do love the show. You had some great interviews Thank you. Thank you. It's uh, it is a passion. I love it We are moving toward face -to -face interviews. If you probably if you saw the Don Winslow, I was just

Going to say, yeah, I was listening to that this morning. I didn't see it. I listened to it. Oh, you should look at it because there's so much great stuff going on because when you sit down face to face, there's something that happens very palpable. And it's done in my home. He came here from his home and we just sat down and we just took all our time in the world. And then Christopher Reich dropped today.

And we're in a studio up in Los Angeles on that one, a studio that I work with. So those two experiences, Scott, if you pay attention to that look, that's where it's going. I would think from an interview side, I mean, it's so much different in person. You can see it. You can feel it. I mean, everybody who's.

watches those shows, they go, oh my God, the difference. Yeah, because we're sitting there breathing the same air. We're not looking through a lens of a camera or whatever, and you really get to connect. I always take my authors out for a meal afterwards, and we just sit around and hang out, and it just really makes the experience delicious. Well, I look forward to that. Yes. But I thank you in lieu of the in -person experience. I thank you for this. Yes. Yeah, yeah, yeah. By the way, where do you live?

So I'm in Camden, Maine and Bloomington, Indiana. By the way, I'm just going to jump in here and say welcome to the Thriller Zone, Scott Carson.

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For those who are listening, he gave me a thumbs up. Oh, that's right. We have an audio component. Thank you. It is my pleasure to be here. Now, now tell me this because I automatically kick into, by the way, we're talking about this book, Lost Man's Lane, and I kicked into Scott Carson instantly. Um, and I know that the it's actually, uh, let's see, uh, you gave me a great little cheat sheet. Juanita, Margarita, Corita. Yeah. Corita. Yes.

Michael Corita. So Michael Corita is your given name, Scott Carson is your pen name, and they split off into two different genres. Am I right so far? You are right so far, yes. So Scott Carson kind of handles the darker work. Although, I don't know, I always find it interesting. I have readers who say they don't want to be scared, so they just want a story about human murder. Something like Those Who Wish Me Dead involving assassins, they're completely good with.

Now a ghost, something that seems far less plausible. They're like, yeah, that gives me nightmares. It keeps me up. I've always found that a little bit fascinating with the human condition here. Yeah. That's like saying I'm more scared of a haunted house where nothing shows up than I am of a serial killer that's murdering our neighborhood. Yes, exactly. The thing that you took that was inspired from a real life crime or real life tragedy.

I'm good with that. I can sleep well at night. But it's that haunted house that really, you know, that one does it to me. Can we spend about 30 seconds on this because I have now I have been talking to people over the last almost three years now with this show and we've gone back and forth. Pen names, no pen names. I've always been kind of a fan of in Europe.

perfect example of this. Hey, this genre is over here. This genre is over here because, and I was just talking to someone about this today. I said, he goes, you know, should I do that? I'm like, well, if you write, let's say crime thrillers, like straight ahead police procedurals, and you've written five of them. And all of a sudden, one day you go, hey, you know what I'm going to do? I'm going to write a space cowboy. If I'm coming to you either,

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in sequence or for the first time and I'm expecting police procedural and I get a space cowboy, I'm going to go either, I'll give it a chance or if I'm not into space cowboys, I'm probably going to bounce on you. The other hand is I heard this and I really want your opinion on this. I was listening to an interview with Tim Ferriss and Hugh Howey, probably one of the best podcast episodes I've heard in forever. I bet. Tim Ferriss, yeah. Tim Ferriss, brilliant. Hugh Howey, hi.

talking about a success story. And Hugh made this great comment. He goes, if people like your pros, be whatever flavor it is, they're going to follow you wherever you go. And that's the first time I'd thought about it that way. So if they like your magic, your secret sauce, then they're going to follow you whatever genre. So what's your things? I've now taken up 22 minutes asking the question. No, it's a great question.

And honestly, I think I was probably a little late in realizing that there are some readers who just divide into genre camps or certain story camps. I was a little spoiled, particularly when I moved over to Little Brown and I was working with Michael Peach. The first book I did with Little Brown was called So Called the River. And this was, you know, it was a full on ghost story. It is very much in the Scott Carson lane.

Um, and I did a couple in that vein, and then I went and did a book called the prophet, which is more, um, really, I mean, there's a crime story there, but it's a family drama. It's got high school football in it. Very different. Then I do those who wish me dead, which is this, you know, thing set out in the wilderness in Montana with assassins and forest fires. And when I was working with Michael, he always said, your job is to deliver the best book.

My job is to figure out how to get it to the readers. And I probably put too much pressure on the publishers to deliver and booksellers to deliver in that way. So I don't disagree with the idea of once someone finds your voice, they'll follow you. But it can be very helpful for everyone else involved in the process. If you say, Hey, I can give you the lane over here. And, you know, I think about the body of work that Stephen King.

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has created and for every supernatural story, we also have a Shawshank redemption or the body Stand By Me. People are showing up for King, but even within that world, that was a guy who wanted to try suiting him at some point in time. So I wish I had started this, the pen name thing a little bit earlier. I have very clear lanes, not for the reader or my editors so much as the booksellers and the librarians.

and the people who are introducing you for the first time. This is so good. Thank you for that because here's what you're doing is you're saying, what shelf do I put you on? Yep. What section of the store, what shelf do I put you on? If you're blending, that's even more challenging. But I see that and I get it. And personally, and this is what I like about your mojo.

As you say right out back in the back of the jacket, you go, Scott Carson is the pseudonym of so there's no, you know, it's not like there's one picture of you with your ball cap on. Hey, I'm Scott and over here, I'm in a suit and tie and I'm Michael. Wait a minute. Aren't they the same guy? Yeah, they're the same guy. We, we were a little more honest with this book. I will confess the first Scott Carson book. I loved the idea of having a

genuine pseudonym, by which I mean it was a secret no one would know. I could give a book to a friend and say, tell me what you think of this guy. And I would get an honest opinion back as painful as that might've been. But it turns out publishers want to sell these things. And there's this idea of publicity and promotion that is useful. So it's tougher to do with the invisible man. So now, yeah, we're right out in the open. And I also get to...

live out the fantasy of having a name that people can pronounce without the, you know, think Margarita think I didn't need the phonetic device. Yeah. Think Larson think Parson. Yeah. Yeah. If the reader can't get to Carson, I probably don't want that reader. Honestly. Yeah. Yeah. All right. So let's, let's back up a second. So for backstory, we got 10 standalone. We got three of Scott three, uh, let's see, Mark.

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Marcus Novak series and for Lincoln Perry series as Michael so which way this is a crazy question But if someone pops in my head, do you have a favorite because everybody's got a favorite of everything they do in life So you're I know you're gonna love both lanes, but do you have one lane? You like just a little bit more. It's it's a great question and I think Well, the answer is no because

If there was one that I loved more, I would stay, I would be smart enough to stay in there and just keep hitting down the fairway. Um, instead I always, you know, I'm, I'm drifting around, but the thing about the supernatural stories that really appeals to me is I think they're so tough to do well, to sell an audience of skeptics. So I'm a reader who I'm not a fan of, you know, the ghost hunting shows. I'm not.

That's not the world that appeals to me, but when a book or a movie in that world lands for me, I'm in awe of the storytelling because you have to, you've got to achieve all of the things that you would do in a crime novel or a thriller anyhow. All of those things still need to be there, but now you also have to build this new mythology and sell it to the reader and sell it to yourself. And I like that added challenge of so,

The supernatural stories are by far the more difficult ones for me. Um, but the satisfaction of sticking the land in there is maybe a little bit greater. The last point I'm going to make on this so I don't look like I'm just beating a dead horse is this. And the thing I like the most about pseudonyms is this argument. We're writers. We create worlds out of thin air. And if you want to write crime,

procedurals for book one, two, three, four, five. And all of a sudden you go, you know, I got a wild hair. I want to, I want to write a supernatural cowboy mystic thing. Then go for it. Somebody somewhere is going to like it. You're going to enjoy the process or for my Canadian friends, the process. So I say run with reckless abandon. So I applaud you in both that camp and this camp. There you go. I don't think you're ever going to get your best work.

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by staying in the familiar. It's going out there and getting a little bit dangerous. And that doesn't mean changing genre necessarily. It can be changing voice. It's working on a type of execution or a stylistic technique you've never played around with before. But if the book doesn't scare you a little bit in terms of some sort of fresh creative challenge, yes.

then I don't think you're going to get it's not going to be your best stuff. There has to be something in there that scares you a little. And after all, don't you hear this a hundred times, Michael Scott? Don't you hear this constantly? I want, I want you to do this thing, but different. Exactly. That you know, a little bit of that and a little bit of that, but just make it different. Oh, okay. Let's see. We all complain when.

you know, a new album comes out from a favorite artist. It's either, it sounds too much like the last one, or it sounds too experimental. They got too far away from what I loved. You know, it's that challenge of, there's such a sacred bond between the artist and the audience, but you can't let them steer you completely. You know, and I liked what you said earlier about, I think if you're doing it really well and you're putting in,

your best work, they will follow you. They really will. You might lose some, but such is life. Yeah. And I don't know if you agree with this or not, but as far as we know, we only get one crack at this life. So why don't we just have fun with it? And for some reason in my mind, Picasso popped into my mind because Picasso was a classically trained artist. His

early work was nearly photorealistic in a lot of ways. I mean, he was a master. And then one day he said, I want to go off the beaten path and get kooky. My word, not his. And that's what's not a direct from the journals of Picasso quote. No. And so.

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This is what he's become known for. Can you imagine if all of a sudden he says, hey, how do you, hey audience, how do you like that wacky stuff, the kooky stuff? You like that? You don't, you know? Oh. Are you following me here? Yeah. Anyway. All right. Let's talk about Lost Man's Lane. And by the way, folks, I want to, I want you to look at the very tip top of, there's a little guy right here who says, it's Stephen King's calling you a master. You know, and I, I'm looking at the back and I'm just bear with me. I know you, this is.

partly old to you and partly maybe nerve wracking, but I'm going to do it anyway. Some of my favorite authors in the world are singing your praises. Megan Abbott. I mean, with Lost Man's Lane, Scott Carson fuses a gothic spellbinder steeped in old American lore with the piercing ache of a coming of age story, bittersweet and filled with longing. It's a dazzling, genuinely terrifying novel. I could stop right there.

And some readers probably should just make sure you make it to the cash register first. That blurb, I'm glad you highlighted that quote from Megan, actually, because that one meant a lot to me both because I think she's just brilliant. She's as good as anyone out there right now. But also she put her finger right on what I was hoping to do with the novel. And that's always you, you mentioned earlier, you said, maybe it gets old. I'm 19 books into this thing now. The one.

element that has not gotten old and never will is just knowing that writers I love and admire are reading my stuff. You know, you hope they like it, but there is never going to come a day when I don't, my heart doesn't speed up a little bit at the idea that Stephen King has read my stuff. You know, it's just that, that is a sort of the real level of

the dream when you first set out and say, I want to write a book. The thing you probably don't let yourself hope for is for Michael Connolly to read it and Dennis Lane and Stephen King. And I've been so fortunate to have writers like those guys like Megan, like Laura Lippman, you know, go out of their way to be very generous and supportive. But man, it has not gotten old. That's the that is still such a thrill. Scott, that would be like.

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You saying, you know, my dad comes up, puts his arm around me, says, son, I love you and I'm proud of you. And you turn to him and go, dad, I'm kind of tired of hearing that.

I like that cop that's Spot -on Yes All right. So do this for the folks who have not grabbed this yet. Tell me about lost man's lane. Just set it up for me Yeah, so it's set in my hometown of Bloomington, Indiana in 1999 and It's drawn a bit from my own experience when I was 16 years old. I got an internship

working with a private investigator whose name was Don Johnson. I mean, you cannot beat that as the PI name. And it was just something, my high school had this program called independent study. And I don't think they believed I could deliver the required qualified mentor. And I cold called this guy in the yellow pages and gave him my pitch about how I wanted to learn the business. And he actually, he,

He let me take the shot and it was so much fun. I mean, it was just, it was a great experience. It was lasting and turned into, it was a part -time job while I was in college. Then it was my day job until I was making enough as a writer, you know, to just do that full time. And I still kind of have my hand in the PI game. My wife now manages a component of that business. We bought out the side that does background.

checks and kind of more corporate pre -litigation stuff. But to be 16 years old and in this small town, working around a private investigator was just something I loved. And I think I needed to get some distance to write about that because it more naturally aligned as a coming of age story in a way. So Marshall Miller, the protagonist, he has no idea who his father is.

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And that sort of quest for identity and understanding of himself is at the core of the book. And the opening scene, the central present day crime that drives it is a moment when he's stopped by a police officer who just sort of flies into a rage that makes no sense at all. But he lets Marshall go. And as Marshall is watching this guy leave, he sees a girl in the backseat of the police car. And the next time he sees her face, it's on a missing persons poster.

And that case is what leads him to his relationship with the private detective. And darkness ensues. Darkness ensues. Darkness and hijinks. We're going to take a short break to thank our sponsors and we'll be right back here on The Thriller Zone. Stay with us. And now back to the show. There is that moment when the, and I'll be nice because it's a family show, the officer.

approaches Marshall and says what he says the way he says it. If you've ever been stopped by a cop before, folks, you know what I'm talking about. You know, from the moment you see that flashing light and then you pull over and your palms instantly sweat and you're like, oh, this is not going to go well. And that thing just haunts him throughout the whole story. I love that. Yep. The cop takes it up. It starts out with a little bit of...

teasing, but there's always that intimidation element there, you know, that comes with with authority. And then when, when the cop takes it up to an 11, and there's that hint of insanity of rage, that stays with Marshall throughout the book. And I think it's a dynamic that's, that's really interesting. It's, you know, we want and need.

these people to respond to be good people. And then there's that question. It was like, Ooh, what if you got one who wasn't, you know, what if you got the truly and you're alone? This is an era. One of the reasons I enjoyed 99 was being able to create that sense of isolation. You know, you have, you can't phone anyone there. There are no cameras watching you. It is just you trapped in that moment. And I tried to take that sort of claustrophobia, build it into the scene and then.

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release Marshall out of that, but he's trapped with the memory that the girl who's about his age left with this guy. Yeah. And why? And why was she wearing what she was wearing? Why was she's in the back of the car? Why was she crying? Et cetera. Yeah. Just all the whys are enough to go, wait a minute, what's going on here? Yeah. You know, uh, we dropped a, we did a whole, we,

We did a fair bit of name dropping as we started the show, but I also want to do another kind of name dropping by the awards for folks who go, yeah, so the guys, you know, he lucked out. He, he got a nice little blurb from Mr. King and he's on his way, but not exactly. Cause we got nods by the LA times book prize, the Edgar, the shameless, the Barry, the quill, the ITW, the golden dagger. So, you know, you, you didn't just luck out. You had pure talent.

Coursing through your veins young man. Oh, you would think that, but I've actually been able to place my mother on every one of those jury committees. It's been a, it's been a hell of a scam. I don't know how much longer I can do it, but.

As challenging as this question may be, and I'm sure in all your book tour, uh, podcasts and interviews, and if I, if it's, if you've heard it a hundred times, please don't roll your eyes and just go, Oh, David, what a very clever and unique question. Thanks for asking. But I have myself going, what do you think is your secret sauce? You've got something you got, you, you've got this intrinsic gift.

and storytelling that is something I can't put my finger on. I kept going. Well, it's it's kind of like that, but not really like that. It is like that, but not really like that. It's just this thing. What do you think it is? It actually it is a great question. I'm not delivering that simply because you told me to, because this is something I've thought about a lot more over the years. And when I teach and you can see someone who's doing things.

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right from a technical perspective, but it just doesn't thing, it doesn't pop. And for a long time, I'm so into the craft of it. You can improve in technical ways, you can continue to learn. And early on, I think I was convinced that I really could, if you gave me someone who wanted to be a novelist, I could build one.

You know, just by teaching them the craft and read this and try that and study and put in your 10 ,000 hours. But I don't believe that anymore. And I think what we're talking about just boils down to voice. You know, you show up with some original perspective and tone, and it's not just the way you see it's not a worldview. It's the way you relate that to language that.

You can improve it in different ways. And this is one of the things that I found very kind of amusing when I tried to break out and create the Carson persona. I wanted to create a different voice. And then I realized with the Chill, the first Carson book, it's kind of like, oh no, you have what you have. And you can try to push that into different types of stories, but at the end of the day, your voice is your voice. And I think the things that you spark to are not going...

to change so you can move around, whether it's in genre or setting or character, you can, you should move around within that space. But the thing that makes your heart beat a little faster, whatever your emotional cues and triggers are, those are going to still be there, no matter how different the story world might be. And one of the, I think this book in particular, I really enjoyed.

because it has this underlayer of nostalgia. And that's something that I say, I would say you could look back at my work and, you know, from my first, my debut on, I'm very drawn to characters who are haunted by the past in some way, where the past is breathing on their neck in a very active way. And sometimes that's literal, you know, the ghost story brings the past right into the present.

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So then it plays out very naturally. In other books, I'm thinking of the Prophet, for example, here. We have characters who are haunted by the question of, if I had made a different choice, where would we be? And that's a very long -winded way to answer what was probably a very simple question. But I love the question because it's something I'm still not sure exactly what I think in terms of.

What is the special thing when I'm reading someone else and I say, man, this writer, like, I know she's going to be big and you can feel it sometimes you read that debut and you're just like, oh, this one is, you know, we are bound for special things here. Um, I don't know how to define it other than to say boys. Well, and I think what's interesting in this trigger to thought, if you and I were given, if we were going to get up on a panel and speak in front of someone, a group and.

Someone said, handed us a note and it's a joke or it's a short soliloquy, whatever it is, I don't care, but it's identical. And someone said, David, you go in this corner, Scott, you go in that corner, you got five minutes, read it, interpret it, memorize it if you want to, whatever, come back to the stage. Just the mere fact of the way that we're going to read and or...

personalized and just personalized describe is going to be vastly different, but it's going to be, it could even be the exact same paragraph, but I'm going to bring something to the party you ain't got and you're going to bring something to the party that I couldn't possibly bring. Absolutely. It's I love that comparison with the idea of the joke in particular. It would be, that would be a fun Netflix special to send, you know, Dave Chappelle and Jerry Seinfeld off in separate rooms with the exact

Here's your setup and here's the punchline we need you to get to, but they would have, it would feel so different. And they, and they could both be very successful with their delivery, but it is going to be the magic, the thing that makes it work when they deliver it to the audience will be that special thing we call voice. Exactly. Yeah.

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Well, you've got a hell of a voice. Now I only know you as Scott Carson, so I guess I got to pick up a Michael book and read it so that I can see what your other personality. That Corita guy, I'm telling you, we're going to leave him in the dust.

All right. Well, I always close every show with this one question. It's kind of my hallmark signature. And it's like, what is that best piece of writing advice? And you can, you can think about this as I have listeners who are brand new to writing and they're working on their very first one. I've got other readers who are, you know, they're 10 books in, but they love this part because they always go, they pick up a little something extra each time. So what's your piece?

of writing advice. I mean, I immediately begin thinking of the read widely. Don't just read in the wheelhouse of what you want to produce. You know, like read as widely as possible because it's all grist for the mill, but you're also absorbing so many different styles and so many different tricks. And the more shots you have in the bag, the better. The other thing that I personally would offer that probably goes against what a lot of people.

have said on your show is I'm a big believer in keeping your goals close to the vest at least for as long as possible. And by that I mean, so Stephen King in on writing, he says, write the first draft with the door shut. And I agree with that completely. I wrote three books that I didn't show anyone. I began showing people my fourth book, but I didn't even tell people that I really wanted to write.

And there's something there is, by the way, there's actual neuroscience to back this up. I was not aware of it at the time, but there's something about not voicing a goal that allows it to hold a little bit different magic. And, um, there really is some pretty interesting data and research on the way it deepens motivation, because now it is, you sort of have this secret project onto yourself and no one can.

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When people give you feedback, and I know writers groups work for some people. I was never in one, but I'm not saying they're a bad thing. However, when you're offering up 10 pages, you're going to hear essentially one of two things coming back. It's really good or it's really bad. And either one of those is dangerous, particularly in the early days, you know, because you don't want to.

become defeated, which the negative feedback can be. But I think maybe more dangerous is the idea of being told you've done great stuff already. The great stuff will come out of draft three, four, five, and six. So it's one that I know a lot of newer writers want to share stuff early. They want to get feedback early. And I would sort of urge against that.

Yeah, I like that. There's a great, that's great insight. And I appreciate that because sometimes you find yourself, Oh, if I tell Scott, Scott, Hey, I want you to read this thing and you go, you know, it's, it's pretty good. I'm going to be staring at your reaction. I'm going to go, Oh, it's not that good. You know, or, or you might really love it.

And, uh, 10 other people go, of course, Scott's going to say that he's your best friend. Everybody else, you know, we know what the truth is. So I just think it's a good, I like that insight and advice. That's, that's solid. And I think I would also worry about letting myself off the hook a little bit. If I had shared, you know, five chapters of the work in progress and it went over really well, it's so, it's so easy to, even though you wouldn't intend it.

It's so easy to let off the gas a little bit because suddenly you've got this contentment of, Oh, I know it's landing well. You know, I know that this is good. Well, that's reassuring, but I think you probably get the better push if you're not sure. And the longer you can go being not sure the more just by the nature of kind of the human brain, the harder you're going to be on yourself.

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because you want it to be good and you have had no feedback yet.

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I totally dig that. It makes so much sense. So put that in your pipe and smoke it, baby. Scott and I were talking before we came on about the power of these face -to -face conversations I've been having with Don Winslow, Chris Reich, Chris Hoddy, John Lindstrom. And there's something that happens when you get in the room with someone and you're breathing the same air and you're just really...

absorbing each other's energy. And as I'm talking to you now, I get a totally different feeling than when I very first met you. And that's the thing. That's the magic, just to die tribe for a second. That's the magic of being face to face. That's why I like going to book signings and I like doing this show face to face. So I'm going to, I'm going to say on your next book, we're going to figure out a way to sit down face to face because I have a feeling we could really deep dive for several hours. And I would love it with some really, yeah, some good stuff.

Once again, the book is Lost Man's Lane, folks. And if you want to learn more, go to Michael Corita and that is K -O -R -Y -T -A .com. Of course, Scott Carson, the guy who wrote this one, there one in the same, don't tell anyone. But man, I wish you so much success, Scott, and it's so fun having you on the show. I appreciate your time. Thank you. This is my pleasure. Had a blast. And I can genuinely say I'm a fan of the show. So you might be tired of the Zoom interviews, but...

Just keep them coming because that, you know, you were asking what my advice would be. It also involves reading interviews or listening to writers talk about process. I mean, just to kind of get down in the weeds and live with, with the craft in the way that you help people, you facilitate that opportunity. So keep them coming. Well, thank you. Thank you. Yeah. It's, it's not saying.

necessarily goodbye to the classic zoom. It's just that man, once you sit down face to face and just break bread and hang out, it's dynamite. Anyway, huge success to you. Sorry, the situations that you're in currently with some family issues, but I thought the prayers are with you. Thank you. But boy, with this book tour, folks are going to love hanging out listening to you. Well, I hope so. Thank you very much. Appreciate the opportunity. And I look forward to...

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Gonna hold you to that, let's get together in person for the next one.

And it'll either be in Bloomington, Indiana, I suppose. Right. Or what was the other location? Maine? Yeah. Camden, Maine. It's interesting. I've learned over the years, much easier to recruit people to visit Maine than Indiana. It's like, so far, I think Maine has about a 55 to one lead on people wanting to visit. Well, I'll make it easy on you.

Talk to anybody who's gone to Bauschere Con. They love San Diego, which is where I live. I love San Diego. Any excuse to go to San Diego. Just, this would be good enough. Talk to you for two hours about books. Let's book it in. And dude, if you could see what I'm looking out at the window, we've got a great little gazebo, a pool jacuzzi. We have a dining service. I mean, we take care of you. So when you show up to our joint, you get treated nice.

Well, let's plan on it. The next one's going to be a bright, cheerful story about a haunted nuclear bomber. So what's not to like? Thanks again, Scott. Our hat is off to you for another wonderful book, Lost Man's Lane. Folks, before I scoot out of here, I want to say one more time, thank you so much for subscribing to our YouTube channel, youtube .com slash The Thriller Zone. Be sure to catch us.

on every single podcast channel available. I mean, it's Apple Podcasts, it's Spotify, it's iHeartRadio, it's Amazon Music. Check us out wherever you enjoy your favorite podcasts. And of course, you can find us at thethrillerzone .com. I'll see you next time for another edition of The Thriller Zone.