Scott Turow: The Father of Legal Thrillers Shares His Journey from Law to Box Office Magic

Dave Temple
00:01:36

Hello and welcome to the 212th episode of the Thriller Zone. I'm your host Dave Temple and today is a special day as we welcome the OG of legal thrillers, Scott Turow.

Scott's with us to discuss his latest thriller, Presumed Guilty, the follow up to his runaway bestseller that literally put him on the map with Presumed Innocent. If you read the book then you're aware of Scott's vast expertise in the world of legal court action.

Also if you recall, Harrison Ford played the original Rusty Savage back in 1990. Just last year Jake Gyllenhaal starred in the same role but with a very different take on the lead as you will hear on today's show.

Okay, that's enough preamble. Let's welcome Scott Turow to the Thriller Zone.

Scott Turow
00:02:18

How are you?

Dave Temple
00:02:19

Yeah, good. It's so nice to meet you. What an honor.

Scott Turow
00:02:22

Oh, you're boy, okay, that and a nickel will catch you on the subway.

Dave Temple
00:02:27

But wait a minute, a nickel went way. That's long time ago, wasn't it?

Scott Turow
00:02:33

I, I know. No, I met, I meant to be old fashioned response.

Dave Temple
00:02:40

Well, it is so nice to see you. I'll start out of the gate with a great big old geek moment of when I say that, you know, you're one of my heroes. It's.

It sounds so corny but man, I remember, geez, this was been about mid to late 80s. Yeah, must have been. Was it 87 when, when this book came out. Yeah, because I remember I, I remember you, you bounced on the scene.

I'm like who is this guy? And I think I want to start off with this. What does it feel like?

And I was either I read this somewhere, Scott, or I made this up, but what does it feel like to be regarded as kind of the pioneer of that legal thriller?

Scott Turow
00:03:25

I, I always refer David, to Presumed Innocent is like riding a rocket ship.

And you know, you have to bear in mind I'm a guy who had tried unsuccessfully to publish book length fiction for probably 20 years and then all of a sudden and I, I finished Presumed Innocent which I'd begun on the morning commuter train working for three months in my basement and then all of a sudden I'm this author of this worldwide number one bestseller that's you know, going to become a, supposedly become a movie.

Dave Temple
00:04:02

Yeah.

Scott Turow
00:04:02

And it was an, it was an outof body experience. And I have to say that, you know what I thought I was doing to start was yoking a more literary, psychologically accurate novel with a mystery. Right.

So and so I resisted, you know the legal thriller label at first because, you know, I. I thought I'd written enough.

You know, the reality I certainly became familiar with is people who want to read my books and treat them in the first instance as interesting plots do no disservice to me. And I'm happy. I'm happy to have readers on whatever terms they arrive.

So, you know, I ultimately came to regard it as a great honor be referred to as the father of the modern legal thriller.

Dave Temple
00:05:00

All right, so I want to make sure I get this right and make sure I heard this right, because it is early 20 years. You were writing before this happened.

Scott Turow
00:05:10

Yeah. In other words, I had announced to my friends and family by the time I was 8 years or 10 years old that I was going to be a novelist. And that was.

Had been my mother's ambition that she never was able to achieve for herself. And, you know, I went to college saying, I'm going to be an obelisk. And.

And by the time I graduated from college, I put together a no Fella and four stories. And then. And I. I was lucky enough to win one of the writing fellowships at Stanford.

So I was out at Stanford writing for five years and two as a fellow and three as a lecturer in the English department. And during that period of time, I had again written a. I wrote a novel. Not a terrible novel, but a novel that was not.

It didn't arrive in New York at the right time in the sense that it was a hippie novel when America was sick of hippies. So then when I was in the period I became an assistant US Attorney after one l my book about law school was published.

I had written a good short story, but I had then tried to sort of thin the soup because it was too long as a short story to really get published. About 30 pages is too long for a short story, at least in the existing marketplace. So I extended it to a work of, you know, a very short novel.

And my then agent, Gail Hockman, called me up and she said, you know, I've got a young editor who's interested in this book. And I said, forget it, forget it. I'm working on something else. And Gail, who knew my history, you know, which also included a.

Something that I'd written as a lark in college, so that those are the four works of fiction that went unpublished. Gail was. She said she was ready to crawl down the phone line and choke me because, you know, she's finally got someone interested.

And I say, you know, forget it. I'm working on something better. But that young editor, John Galassi, who ultimately became my editor on Presumed Innocent. Wow.

Dave Temple
00:07:43

I'm trying to imagine what it would be like because this is a story I'd never heard before. How, you know, how somebody has that intention or that dream early on and says, this is what I want.

This is where I'm going, which I feel very familiar with. And then not to see it happen perhaps as quickly as you had dreamed.

And you're, you're trudging along and you're banging out the words and you're like, man, is this going to happen or not? And then kaboom. And then, and then from then on, everything else is just.

Scott Turow
00:08:14

You know, there's a story I don't tell very often where it was very late at night and all of this stuff with Presumed Innocent had happened. And I find myself. And I don't cry very often.

Dave Temple
00:08:29

But.

Scott Turow
00:08:29

I found myself overcome and weeping in my living room as I sat there by myself. And what I kept saying to myself was, I had wanted it so bad, I didn't even understand what that meant.

But I was responding to the intensity of ambition that had propelled me for a number of years, both as a young writer having middling to marginal success, and then writing, despite how hard it was to do in both law school and, you know, when I started out as a young prosecutor. There's always a disjunction, right, between dreaming of something and having it come true. Right. You know, I'm. I'm.

I am married to one of the most beautiful women I have ever seen in my life. But, you know, I stopped thinking of her that way, you know, not long into the. When our relationship began. And I, you know, I see your as.

As she is to me, somebody I adore and who loves me, too. And, you know, Presumed Innocent was the same way. You know, you're still yourself. There is no magical transformation.

Number one bestseller movie deal, whatever it is, you're still yourself. And so I look back at that period of wild, unsatisfied ambition, and it wasn't like I thought it was wasted energy or anything like that. It was just.

But it was almost as if, God, I wish I could have channeled those emotions differently.

And, and, and I, I will also say to you, as I often tell people, if you can become the author of number one worldwide bestseller, I recommend it to you. You should do that because, you know, it's a lot of fun. I, I had and have always a tremendous amount of fun with, you know, the, The.

The success that my writing has brought Me. So, you know, I've. I've enjoyed it. Nothing is better than having the freedom to write. I, I. So I don't mean to diminish it.

I'm just saying that it was the, the, the ambition and the reality colliding with each other. And it was an important moment for me just to recognize that.

Dave Temple
00:11:11

I think of the phrase, it's never as good as the first time. But have you ever been able to, to experience that level of pure thrill again since.

Scott Turow
00:11:25

Well, a short answer, no. But for. For a couple of reasons. You know, one is, you know, Euripides. You can't step in the. Is it Euripides? No, it's Ecclesiastes.

You can't step in the same string twice. But the other was that, you know, I've written one short story in college that was published in a sort of.

I got up from a fever bed and wrote for 16 hours. But aside from that experience, I had never had the feeling, as, certainly while working on a novel, of sort of having the wind under my wings.

And that summer that I took off from the law to finish Presumed Innocent, I had this feeling suddenly, like I was using everything I had learned both in those years, you know, pining to become a novelist and as a young lawyer, and it was all coming out in this manuscript. So, no, you can't. You can't duplicate that. You know, you try to go back to it.

And I have to say, writing, you know, Presumed Guilty because I was in Rusty's voice again. Yeah, I had a lot of that feeling that, you know, I really, I got this. I really. I have this.

And, you know, and that's the advantage, of course, of having many, many years under your belt. But, you know, you can't. You can only be young once. I think Aaron Novel has a minister who says that, you know, you can't live backwards.

Dave Temple
00:13:22

Yeah.

Scott Turow
00:13:22

You know, you can't. You can't have first love twice.

Dave Temple
00:13:25

No. Well, what's interesting, by the way, I love the book. It's. It's everything you expect from Scott Turow, you know, and it's so.

How can I say this without sounding like a complete idiot? There's such a density and such a fullness to it. Meaning.

There's constant backstory and front story and nuance and double meanings and layers throughout every single page. And, you know, it's clocking. It's getting close to 600, so the world is so full. And what my mind kept thinking was like, okay, that was 87.

It's many, many years. Later. And you feel like as I was reading this, I feel the exact same way I read Felt when I was reading Presumed Innocent.

I just feel like I had kind of gone away for a little break, come back, and there I was in the world again. And to me, that's a challenging thing to do. And bravo to you.

Scott Turow
00:14:24

Yeah. You know, both my agents and my editor. My editor now is a guy at Grand Central named Ben Severe, who's both the editor in chief and publisher.

And that was the remark they made to me was what Gail, my agent, who read the first draft, said. Since this just feels to me like reading Prison Dennis. And. Yeah. You know, and that's. If I knew. If I knew how to do that, every time.

Time I'd bottle it. But I don't. But it was because I. I, as I was writing, had that same feeling of momentum. And not just momentum, but what you just articulated.

Because I think that's really astute, which is that there's a kind of fullness to the imagined world that it's like you could stop this guy at any point and tell you six stories.

Dave Temple
00:15:17

Yes. And that is such a talent and a gift because it's. It takes nuance to the next level.

But here's a question that kept going through my head the whole time. Well, no, first of all, I gotta say this because Harrison Ford has become easily one of the biggest movie stars of our time. And I.

And I'm trying to think to myself where his career was in 87. That's not essential. My real point is to say, how did it make you feel?

You know, I've spoken to hundreds of authors on this show over the three years now in our season eight. And I've. And I've always heard them say, oh, my dream would be to have it turned into a TV series or a film. So you had that. And I'm trying to.

I want to hear how that felt. Because you. You knew that they were talking about, hey, we. We want to option this thing. And you're like, okay, well, I've heard those stories.

But how do you feel when all of a sudden the key clicked, it dropped, the cylinders dropped, and you're like, off to the races with Harrison Ford.

Scott Turow
00:16:20

Right, Right.

Well, you know, first of all, I would say when Harrison went to work on Presumed Innocence, he was probably the biggest movie star in the United States. The third Indiana Jones movie had just come out. He'd been at the Smithsonian donating Indiana's hat to the museum.

And then from there, literally came directly to Chicago to have lunch with me and to talk about, you know, the book and the movie. And I. I came to and continue to like Harrison Ford tremendously. He. He presented himself as like me, just another guy from the north side of Chicago.

But it's a little bit of what we were talking about before. Yeah, the. The dream is it becomes a movie. And, you know, and my first dream has always been to be the writer. And to that.

And that feeling that I described before while writing Presumed Innocent or writing Presumed Guilty, the wind under your wings. Yeah, that remains to me, the biggest thrill.

But there's no question, you realize when Harrison Ford shows up for lunch, a lot of people are going to see this movie. And what I've always tried to do, and I've been lucky enough to have been through many adaptations, not all of them have become visible to the world.

My friend Rick Patterson has a line that I love that movie deals are like sperm. Many are called, but few are chosen. And that, that. That is the truth. And I have been through such. I. I've seen the way that process works. I.

One show that was greenlighted and then the director got into a fight with the studio after the production office was open and it cratered. So it's. It's always a miracle when anything gets filmed, but, you know, it's fun hanging around with movie stars. Let's not. Let's not pretend.

And, you know, Ryan Dennehy became a really close friend up until, you know, his last days. He was a remarkable, remarkable not only actor, but also retail. And I loved it dearly.

And, you know, it's in the sense that you are with Harrison or with Brian or many of the directors that have become, you know, my good friends, like, you know, John Abnet or Mike Rowe. You're hanging around with really interesting creative people. And it's. It's fun in. And it's in itself. David Kelly's another one I would name.

Yeah, there's a project there, but there's also the people whom they. Who they are. And that's neat in and of itself. Ellen Petula, who directed Presumed Innocent and really wrote the screenplay, is another one.

And, you know, the pure pleasure of the relationships also takes a place along with what they're doing and. But, you know, at the end of the day, is it unbelievable to be sitting on a movie set?

The series, the Presumed Innocent series, when Adrian and I visited the set for a few days, they happen to be filming the courtroom scenes. So you start with. There's 400 extras was there right and the.

And the entire huge staff that it takes to make a film, particularly something, you know, close to eight hours of film. And you look around and it's like, it. It's like, okay, this is. This is something that, you know, I carried around in my head with me.

And in the case of Presumed Guilty, I was thinking of this book for 20 years. It's like, this was my idea for 20 years. And, you know, look at all these people running around making it real.

So I, again, I recommend that experience to anyone who can have it. You'll enjoy it.

Dave Temple
00:20:53

Well, not. I mean, talking about getting kissed by fate. I mean, so you. You write for 12 years. Yeah. And thank you. And then you. You create this book.

It's a whirlwind. You got an international movie star, and then here's the cherry on top. Years later, it comes back around, which is where I got to enjoy it again.

And I could not get enough of that television series. Thank you. I think it was Apple plus Apple tv.

And when I saw Jake Gyllenhaal, who I, among others, have quite a man crush on, and I got to see him inhabit this character, I'm like, oh, we are off to the races. And could not get enough. I mean, talking about being blessed guy.

Scott Turow
00:21:43

Well, I have lived a blessed life. Yeah. And, and, and I am keenly aware of that. I do not, you know, like the last line, Presumed Guilty. I. I try to live gratitude.

And I do, you know, most of the time.

Dave Temple
00:22:02

Let's take a short break, and when we return, Scott shares some inside scoop on the set of Presumed Innocent. Stay with us.

Caller
00:22:57

Hey, Dave, I wanted to leave you a quick message and congratulate you on launching season number eight. Man, what a thrilling ride. It's been so long.

You are always keeping your audience of writers at the forefront of your mind, and that's what is exciting to hear. Each and every podcast certainly brought in the new year with some serious hitters.

I just want to say good luck, and I can't wait to see what the rest of 25 brings us. I know it's going to be fun. Proud of you, brother. Love you.

Scott Turow
00:23:33

When we were on the set for Presumed Innocent, and I. And I like to say that, you know, you're getting old when you're alive to see the remake, so. And.

But it was hard to tell how things were going on that set. You know, what we saw film. We. A wonderful performance by Jake. There's. There's no way around that.

Much different interpretation of the character than, you know, than Harrison Ford, who I, I thought Harrison kind of played the guy I wrote. Whereas Jake brings all that inner emotion that Rusty just shared with the reader.

He, you know, he brought it out and so he's, you know, more high strung and volatile. Rusty Savage. And because he's great at what he does, that worked.

But there were, besides Jake, and besides, you know, the incredibly talented cast, you know, Ruth Nega, who plays, who plays Barbara, Rusty's wife.

And, and she had, by the way, hands full because the, the series where it's written, like many projects in television, they did not have all the scripts. So Ruth is saying, you know, this is a really hard job. I don't know whether I committed this murder or not.

I've read the book, but I don't, I don't know what David is going to choose to do.

But what I was going to say is besides, besides Jake and Ruth and you know, the, the other members of that incredibly talented cast, you know, you've got two other very significant creative forces. Three really, you know, number one is David Keller, who, you know, who's is really a genius at what he does.

And, and he really was the, the number one creative force behind this project. He also oversaw a lot of the editing from, from what I have told what I'm told. And then there's Dusty Thomason from Bad Robot, who's a.

Both a novelist and a very successful screenwriter himself and has had his own shows on tv. And it was Dusty who was running the set.

And there are a lot of challenges on this set, including because the writer strike is looming and you know, they have, they got to get it done. David turned in the last script moments before the writers strike began. And, you know, it was Dusty who was able to hold it together.

And, you know, he ought to be appointed Secretary of State. It took great diplomatic skills to do what he did. And I know he also made significant creative contributions. So.

And you know, Greg Ganis, who that was directing the episodes we saw. He's, he's also great at what he does, and he was also great. And I think this is very hard for a director to do.

You know, Jake Gyllenhaal comes from a family of directors. His father, Stephen Gyllenhaal, whom I got to meet and you know, brief acquaintance, really adored.

And his mom, who's now long gone, Naomi Foner, was also a director. His sister Maggie is now directing.

And, you know, I'm sure there were moments when Jake wanted to take over the set and Greg knew when to stand back and, and Let them do that. Which is, again, that is not easy to do when it's really your set and you're in charge of what's happened.

Dave Temple
00:27:45

But the magic happens when you have this entourage of highly focused and talented individuals who are the. Performing at the best of their business, and they all come together and it's. It's really a dance.

Having worked in the business for years, I understand this. And it's. It's beautiful to watch. It's a dance. And if there's mutual respect and admiration, you're good to go. If there's.

If the battle of the egos gets in the way, then you're a fubar.

There's something I want to ask, and I realize it's loaded and I don't want to put you on the spot and simultaneously, I don't want to give anything away and spoil it for our listeners, but. Yeah, can you say, do you. That. That close. As the movie starts to close, the TV series starts to close, there is a very significant scene.

We'll just say that. A very significant hook that happens. Did you have a preference?

And again, I know it's putting you on the spot between the way the Harrison Ford version ended versus the way the Jake Gyllenhaal version ended, mine telling your.

Scott Turow
00:28:52

Your listeners, slash viewers that the series ends differently than the movie ended. And, you know, that was part because David's an artist in his own right, wanted to make it his own.

I think there's some commercial considerations there because if the word gets out that it's just the same ending, I think that will dull viewer interest. You know, it's hard for me to react because, of course, the ending in Alan's film is the ending that I wrote.

You know, it's different from the book to the movie, though. You know, in the, in the movie, there's a long soliloquy by the. By the murderer, by a very, very talented actor who carries it off.

The book has this insulation of Rusty explaining to his best friend, the detective, how the murder took place, which has left many readers questioning me over the years as well. Is he. Is he actually innocent or guilty? Alan's movie, for very good reasons, gave that doubt away.

So, you know, would I have given David some notes had he turned the script in in time to get the notes? Sure, sure. But I wouldn't have recommended Major Visions or said, no, you should have done it my way. You know, I.

I would have had a couple of thoughts, very much like I get from, you know, Ben Sevier, my editor which is, I think there's a couple things you can do to make this more what you wanted it to be. But, you know, that was the hazard of writer strike.

And again, you want to talk about one of these small miracles that can happen on a movie set, the whole thing came together anyway.

And, you know, I think the strong reaction presumed in some series, it doesn't need my endorsement, but I still thought it was a really good adaptation of what I had done.

Dave Temple
00:30:57

I will never forget. This will go down in my memory book as one of my favorite. My wife and I, Tammy, we watch a lot of content, and so we've learned. I think she'll.

She'll say very kindly, well, she'll call out something that I didn't see, or she'll go, oh, I bet you this is going to happen. And I'm like, how did you see that? She goes, well, I'm married to a writer, first of all.

Second of all, we've been watching enough content that I'm kind of picking up some things. But I will never forget the minute that reveal happens and we both, literally, jaws hanging in the air, turned to each other and went, oh, my God.

And I tease that with such passion because if you haven't seen the series, just drop what you're doing this week and just go spend that time. But, boy, when I saw that, I was like, mind blown.

Scott Turow
00:31:51

Yeah, well, Apple had a big hit, and as I said, a lot of. A lot of people get credit, but at the end of the day, just got to take off your hat to date Kelly because he's.

Dave Temple
00:32:05

He's really good.

Scott Turow
00:32:07

Really good.

Dave Temple
00:32:08

And I'm trying to think how long he's been doing this. I mean, he's that good for a very long time. I'm. I'm. Think I'm seeing his name on the screen in my mind's eye for decades. I'm talking about decades.

Yeah, I want to say 70s.

Scott Turow
00:32:27

I don't know. I don't. David. David's younger than I, So it would. 80s for sure. I think the first successful show he had on was a really good show.

Not as widely viewed as his succeeding shows called Picket Fences, but it was good enough that it established his career. It's a. It was a really nice show. And then, of course, he had alien feel and that there was a huge hit and that. And.

And again, you know, David went to law school and David decided to, you know, go to Hollywood and, you know, Ali McBeal allowed him to begin to exploit that education which he's Never really left behind. He's written a lot of law related stuff over the years. You know, whether it's Boston Legal or I'm not coming up with the.

All the right examples, but he stayed in. What was the other one? I. Oh, who we. I'm forgetting the name of the series before Boston Legal.

But you know, I, I think I, I've never talked to him about it, so I can't speak for him, but I imagine it's kind of a period of discovery for him too with, you know, especially with the success of Ali MCC feel and now, you know, he's now kind of number one name in, you know, what gets called long form or periodic or limited series television. I, I think Taylor Sheridan is probably also vying for that trophy, but, you know, there's enough room for both.

Dave Temple
00:34:10

Yeah. I was going to say before David would have been maybe Stephen Canelo.

Scott Turow
00:34:15

Yeah, for sure.

Dave Temple
00:34:17

Yeah. Operating in that same. And that that's probably where my mind was on the 70s, because that's where Stephen was really rocking it in the 70s.

Scott Turow
00:34:24

Right.

Dave Temple
00:34:24

Then David comes along and you're right, Taylor Sheridan, just to go off for 10 seconds on this. I have never seen a guy come out of nowhere with so much prolific talent and so many storylines and just have one hit after another after another.

And just about the time I'm getting all wrapped up in the Western worlds, I started drilling down and find out what he had written before those. And I'm like, whoa. I mean, just crazy talent.

Scott Turow
00:34:53

Yeah, I mean I. People are always amazed by how prolific David is. And I, we were having a conversation and he said to me, you know, David would.

You unquestionably would say yourself and what you've heard countless authors say, which is. He says, well, I just hear the characters talking, you know, and it's like he's taking transcription.

And that's again with screenwriting, which is much more dialogue. That's. That. That accounts for how quickly this.

Dave Temple
00:35:35

Yeah, I've been studying metaphysics for years and, and just the science of the mind and this, that and the other. And I have spent a lot of time considering the muse and the magic of the muse and so forth. But I.

That you just coined that phrase that I absolutely love and that is, you know, and I think it's when you really get tuned into the muse or your inner voice or your enlightened self of your higher self, whatever that thing is, because you've got to have put in the work to be able to hear the voice, so to speak. But when you Dial that in, and you're able to really sit there and transcribe.

And you hear those characters so clearly, you know that you are in your gift zone. You know, the. The right gifts you've been given, you're. You're in the zone. You got to honor that, work it, be.

Be loyal to it and fair to it, and, you know, and also keep your ass in the chair to do the hard work of just bang, bang.

Scott Turow
00:36:31

You were just.

That was just the point that I wanted to follow on, which is, you know, I had a lot of great teachers over the course of my writing career, and two of the best were Wallace Stegner, great American novelist, and a great teacher, far less known as a writer. Richard Scowcroft and Dick and Wally always said the same thing in the advanced writing seminar.

And there are people sitting there who are going to go on to great careers, like, you know, Raymond Carver or Ellis Hoffman.

But the one thing, you know, dip would put this very much in the terms that you just did, David, which is, you know, you have to put your behind in the chair every day, and there are days when abuse will not visit, but you have to give her a chance to arrive.

Dave Temple
00:37:32

Yeah. If you're not present when she shows up, she might be scratching her head, going, well, I'm here doing my part. Where are you?

Scott Turow
00:37:43

Right, right, right.

Dave Temple
00:37:46

You know, you explore your books, explore so many themes of, you know, the classics. Corruption, morality, complexities of the legal system. As my inner voice goes dumb.

But I wonder, did you feel, when you were practicing law, did you feel like you. And I hope this isn't. What do you think? Do you feel like you were making a difference?

A and B, if you had to do it over again, knowing what you knew, know now, would you have done that journey any differently?

Scott Turow
00:38:17

Well, the second question, the answer is, unquestionably, I would not have done. In terms of my professional career, I would have done anything differently. I was. I was blessed along the way.

And I just, you know, it's one of those lucky things that happens to a lawyer. I had. I had great cases in terms of those being consequential in the community that I lived in.

And that would include things like, you know, prosecuting a number of lawyers and judges who were busy corrupting the state courts in Cook County. And I.

I would regard, you know, some prosecutions, you know, the system is almost invulnerable to reform, but when it came to the judiciary, I really thought there was enough esteem attached to being a judge that you could attract people to do, doing that, who didn't need the incentive of the bribes they could take on the side. And I'm sure that the Cook county judiciary and has had. I've experienced it as a far more wholesome place than it was in those days.

And then when I switch sides, it's. It's agonizing. But, you know, I was lucky enough to be asked to represent a man who had been twice convicted of a horrible murder.

And since the person talking to me about the case was the former chief of the Illinois State Police, and he said, and by the way, this guy is innocent, I thought, well, this is. I don't merely believe it. I don't think you could convict an innocent person twice in the United States. And I was wrong.

But, you know, that case and everything surrounding had tremendous impact in Chicago and really became a formative lesson for a lot of people about the death penalty. Because, you know, my client had spent five years on death row and 12 years before he was finally exonerated. And the.

Because, you know, those that were. There was then there were three cases that were three defendants because they were so high profile.

It really gave a lot of people second thoughts about the death penalty in Illinois. And for that and many other reasons, the death penalty has been abolished in Illinois.

And without a lot of complaints, by the way, without a lot of complaints from the residents of Illinois, it's not like, oh, I wish we still had the death penalty. You're very, very middle of it. So in terms of having an impact on the community, yeah, I think.

I think I've been very lucky to have those kinds of cases.

Dave Temple
00:41:31

Quick question came out of nowhere, popped into my head, so I'm going to ask it. Do you know your friend David Ellis?

Scott Turow
00:41:38

Oh, for sure, for sure. David Ellis showed up as an associate on a case where my firm and his firm were representing the same client.

And so that's how I first got to know him. And I still regard him as a really good friend.

I called him a few years ago because I was thinking of tossing my hat into the ring for a judicial position. I said to David, how do you do this? Because Dave Ellis, who are the people who may not recognize the name.

Dave Ellis is both an appellate court judge in Illinois and a very successful writer of what you have to call legal thrillers, also teams with, with James Patterson, many of his books. I said, so, Dave, how are you doing this?

He says, well, I get up at 3:30am every day and I work until I have to take the kids to school and I was like, you can stop there. You know, I'm too old for that to sign. Sound good?

But he's both a very good writer, very good judge, and it shouldn't be a surprise to anybody that he works very hard.

Dave Temple
00:42:55

And on top of all that, probably one of the nicest, most down to earth fun guys I've ever met. And just, just a prince among men.

Scott Turow
00:43:05

He is an absolute prince, in a very good way.

Dave Temple
00:43:08

Yeah, yeah. And a hell of a writer. Well, I realize that I am getting out of time. I have so many questions. I'm gonna blow. I'm gonna pass by some of them.

There's so many things. There's one I want to ask. It's so good. It's a two. Another two parter. I'm famous for this guy, in case you didn't notice.

Now, do you think technology, especially the development of forensics, has made it harder or easier to create suspense and reasonable doubt? And that's. That could be a yes or no. And has the prevalence of forensic TV shows changed readers expectations about how legal cases unfold?

So it's a little too. For there you got.

Scott Turow
00:43:50

Yeah, well, the, the answer to the second one is unquestionably. And you will hear prosecutors frequently get up and particularly in cases where there's no DNA. No sort of apologize for that in the beginning.

Just, you know, go. This isn't a DNA case. We don't have, you know, we don't have any biological evidence here.

And by the way, that doesn't mean that you can't find the defendant guilty because juries have come to expect the kind of scientific certainty you get out of DNA. I will point out Presumed Innocent, that I wrote DNA 37 years ago was just in its infancy and prosecutors were still fighting against its admission.

And whether it would create or negate suspicion, I'll, I'll leave to you and the people listening to us.

But if I went with the same facts as I had in Presumed Innocent, Rusty Savage would have been convicted after about five minutes of jury deliberation. So would it have been a better story with this innocent guy sitting in the clink? I, you know, I don't know, but it would have been very different.

For that reason, just as a starter, when both David Kelly and Dusty Thomason called me about making this TV show, they both said, well, you know, there got to be changes. And I said, yeah, well, let me stop you right there. We're going to have to start with the plot because otherwise this guy's going to prison.

That's that may not be what you have in mind.

Dave Temple
00:45:42

Wow.

Well, I'm going to wrap with a classic question that I end all my shows with, and you're going to be probably the best professor in quite some time here. So, students, listen up. What is that best piece of writing advice that you would give my listeners who are aspiring writers?

Scott Turow
00:46:01

This one, I have no question. And that is writers write. If you want to hang around in a bar talking to other writers, that does not make you a writer.

If you want to read great books and never put your tush in the chair, you're still not a writer. And if you are some clueless wannabe who doesn't know anything better than and just try to do it, you're a writer. You're a writer.

You may not be a successful writer at first, but this is a craft that, as my friend from Stanford, Tom Ziggle, likes to put it, you got to log a lot of pages in MO in most instances.

And that journey to figuring out how to connect words to thoughts and feelings, that's a long road for most of us, and you just have to sit down and learn to master it. I'm lucky enough that Phil Knight, you know, has written to me occasionally about my books, and I wrote back to him once.

And you know, Phil Knight, of course, the founder of Nike, and I said, you stole the writer slogan, which is just do it.

Dave Temple
00:47:21

That's so good. So good. Well, folks, the first book was Presumed Innocent. The second book is Presumed Guilty. And I gotta tell you something, I.

There's no way of saying one is better than the other. You just gotta read both of them. And if you haven't read Presumed Innocent, go ahead and buy that one, too, so you can get up to speed.

And when you open up Presumed Guilty, it'll feel like just a natural continuation. Scott, this has been a real honor. Thank you so much for your time.

Scott Turow
00:47:48

Yeah, David, an absolutely great interview. Thank you. So well prepared, so incisive. And good luck, by the way, too. So thank you.

Dave Temple
00:47:59

Thank you so much.

Scott Turow
00:48:01

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00:48:04

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